YoDoc - I guess you answered my question.
Authority only exists by the consent of the governed. America was founded on the concept that we have a right to govern ourselves, and to choose who is in authority over us. Having no respect for people who are in authority that we did not grant is not having a problem with authority.
And, given that, I can’t see how you think anyone in this thread has an inherent disrespect for authority. We have a disrespect for people who abuse their authority. And, we have a disrespect for several other people who are not in authority.
Then again, depending on how you look at it, you could say that anyone who values freedom has a problem with authority. As what is liberty but the freedom not to be forced to do things by other people? What is democracy but making all those in authority responsible to the people?
But then you’d have to say nearly every American has a problem with authority, and the distinction would become meaningless.
Actually, democracy is mob rule, and liberty is not absolute.
Living in an area gives your consent to be governed. We have a representative system in order to let you have your voice heard. You personally do not have to consent to every single appointment of authority because your representative does that. Just because you didn’t sit in on the hiring board of a particular cop doesn’t mean his/her authority is any less legitimate.
Having a problem with authority is not a symptom of loving freedom, it’s a symptom of not understanding the world.
I’ve met plenty of people from small town Iowa who pick an easier path out than joining the military.
It’s more to do with not wanting the world to be that way and knowing it doesn’t need to be that way.
Understanding the reason for authority, which BTW, has little to do with rocket surgery, does not ipso facto translate into acceptance. In fact, all significant social change has come about from people who perfectly understand how the status quo uses authority, in its many forms, in order to maintain it – and then proceed to challenge it, and them, in order to provoke change.
That said, being a hired gun for the system is neither intrinsically “good” nor “bad” but rather a situational circumstance that could make the participant either one. Ultimately it boils down to the choices people in those positions make.
Heroes and zeros; you’ll find them in every walk of life.
One of the best responses so far!
I would point out though, that having a problem with authority should not be equated with being opposed to a particular form of it, or a particular policy being enforced. People who honestly believe authority to be unnecessary are either not being honest with themselves, or just don’t understand the world.
I’d ignored the thread altogether until I realized that the OP has a short history here–of starting threads he then abandons & not posting elsewhere.
Basically, I’d like to ask: What, exactly, does he mean by “elevated social status”? Does military or other service get one into The Very Best Clubs? Does it guarantee lifelong high income? Does it make your children “legacies” for the elite private schools & Ivy League universities? Does it make you eligible to marry into the very best families?
Of course not. There were free dinners at some restaurants during Veterans’ Day. Some of the worst politicians are full of compliments–while cutting funds for police departments (as Ricky Perry did here in Texas), starting unnecessary wars, wrecking the economy so that military service is more attractive for poorer folks & cutting medical benefits for the military.
Law enforcement, firefighting & most military careers are working class jobs. Some officers will make it thorugh to retirement & become (or remain) middle class. Some of the military will use the educational benefits to pull themselves up. But, as somebody who’s studied a bit of anthropology & sociology, I’d like to say that there is no “elevated social status” for these people.
Maybe the OP will return to the thread to explain exactly what he meant…
The OP basically means respect, surely. That can manifest in social surroundings or in consideration for a job, etc.
I can’t get past this “when the national calls” stuff: proper John Wayne.
I’m a little late to this party, but I totally understand your bias. I have it myself. I’ve been an EMT for the last four years. My father was a firefighter for 26 years. My dad’s dad was a firefighter for 39 years. My mother used to be a nurse. My brother’s a corrections officer.
One of the things they talked to us about when I first started going to school for my EMT cert was that we would see more shit in the course of a month than most people see in a lifetime. I’ve seen a guy who shotgunned himself in the face. I’ve delivered a baby on the side of a highway. I’ve been shot at, punched, had dogs sicced on me, been vomited on, had to explain to a first-time mother why we weren’t able to save her baby when he stopped breathing. I’ve had to retrieve the body of a guy who committed suicide by self-immolation, only to discover that he was a friend from high school. I’ve had to try to save the lives of cops who’ve been shot, firefighters who have been burned or succumbed to smoke inhalation. I had to pick up the remains of my former EMT partner after he died in an accident on the way to save someone else’s life. It was winter, his partner took a curve too fast, hit some black ice, and crashed. My former partner’s internal organs were frozen to the street when we arrived.
I’ve had to look at a man who was so neglected by his family that they just duct-taped an adult diaper to him, so they wouldn’t have to change him, even when the diaper had reached maximum capacity. He was so neglected that he was essentially one big bedsore, over his entire body. He was in agony as we tried to get him to the hospital when he suffered a stroke. The slightest movement was like fire on his raw flesh. It was a relief to him, I imagine, when he died in the ER.
I’ve had to testify in court about someone who let their 12 year old, special needs son die. While we were working on him at the scene, the parents brought out his siblings and made them watch us. That’s something NO ONE should have to see.
I don’t know anything else. This is what I was born into, and it’s what I was born for. I realize that I’ve talked more about me than about cops or firefighters. My father summed it up best, when I told him that I was considering being an EMT (I toyed with the idea for several years before I did it; my father died in 2001). He said," you don’t make a lot of money. But you don’t do it for the money. You do it because you want to help people. And there are going to be a few times over the course of your career where your actions may prevent someone from dying. Your job is to not lose your head when those moments occur. These aren’t regular jobs. If something goes wrong, people die. Do your job right, almost no one notices. Do it wrong, it’s all over the news."
I’ve had people come up to me and thank me for my service. It’s always weird to me when that happens. I don’t think that I do anything really out of the ordinary (at least, as opposed to cops and firefighters…those fuckers are crazy!). To me, I’m just trying to do what I think is right. If I see someone in trouble, I try to help out.
Objectively, yeah, they’re thankless jobs. But no one in my family got into these jobs for praise and riches.
ETA: One of the main reasons I love being an EMT is because, when I go off-duty, I feel like I actually made a difference in the world. I tend to see people on the worst days of their lives, and if I can ease that for them and their loved ones, then I’ve done my job, and I wouldn’t change that feeling for anything.
Thanks for posting this. Initially, I wanted to post something similar, but decided that I didn’t feel like opening myself up like that. I, for one, am glad you do what you do (in part, so I don’t have to!) It’s always a relief when you guys show up, to us.
I didn’t post it for the recognition or the thanks, Soliloquy. But I appreciate the kind words.
I’m also a Brit. People are drafted now? ‘It’s a cultural thing?’ What is? And the stuff about Germany? What century are you posting from?
My nephew up joined because he lived in Hull and isn’t an academically-inclined person and there are pretty much no jobs in Hull. My younger brother joined up for patriotic reasons, I think. (They’re about the same age). I have no idea what you’re talking about at all.
Anyway… how about those firefighters, eh? And the police and EMTs? I didn’t think this thread was solely about soldiers.
The others do jobs which are not only dangerous but indisputably useful to everyone. A miner might help the economy eventually, but he probably won’t rescue your gran from a burning building as part of his job, like the firefighters, EMTS, etc. Hard to see how that’s not worthy of respect.
I think you’d have to be in post 9/11 America to realize the over-glorfication of firefighters that has become fashionable amongst a certain demographic. Everyone appreciates firefighters. After a few sacraficed their lives in 9/11 and it got a lot of media coverage, open self-flagellation towards all things firefighters has become vogue. There’s no need for the levels we are talking about.
I respectfully disagree, rogerbox, but I admit to being biased. May I quote Kurt Vonnegut?
“I can think of no more stirring symbol of man’s humanity to man than a fire engine.”
Please explain “open self flagellation”…
My experience of soldiers in my country is that there are an awful lot that go into the army as they have very little to offer the world. I don’t doubt that they become well trained folk but on joining the army it has often been because they haven’t really found much in the way of positive employment. It is a well paid job with many benefits to a young man that has yet to quantify the risk he is really taking.
It is also a case of the difficult moral aspect of the wars we go to. As has been said numerous times, the soldiers are fighting other soldiers in far away countries over what many would argue are political reasons. I find that difficult to ‘respect’.
It is, by and large, a job. They get up, do it, get paid, go to bed. Of course there is an elevated level of risk and on some levels they are defending me and the rest of my country but they make that choice and many don’t choose to do it out of honour but benefit.
That said, I also know many that go into the career for honour and for a belief of defending our country and whilst I do not completely agree with them I do respect them. But I think that respect is based more on the individual than the status.
I’ve been a city firefighter/paramedic for almost twenty five years and I’ve yet to meet a firefighter or cop who considers themselves a hero. For us, it’s a satisfying job in which you can take a bad situation and make it better. I don’t expect an elevated level of respect, nor does anyone else I work with.
The glorification of our jobs after 9/11 was unwanted by the average firefighter. We’re a cynical lot, and we knew the other shoe would drop sooner or later. Took longer than we thought, but it seems to be here now. The whole “overpaid government worker” meme has caused me to stop wearing firefighter T-shirts off duty. Tired of strangers making anti-union comments and snide remarks when I’m in the local grocery store. Hard to turn the other cheek sometimes.
I’m not a good writer, so I’ll just say that a lot of this so-called “elevated social status” was thrust upon us, and it hasn’t made a lick of difference in most of our lives. None of my civilian friends seem to think that I’m any better than them, and they’re right.