The Elves killed Isildur

Cafe Society
1

Nobody in Middle Earth or on these boards has asked the crucial question: What would have happened in the history of the Ring if Isildur had survived?

Isildur was certain to become corrupted by the Ring, and he was already head of a major, practically world-wide empire (encompassing the kingdoms of Gondor and Arnor). Do I smell ascendent Dark Lord? It wouldn’t have taken him too long to become as powerful as Sauron, and eventually just as evil.

Would the Elves eventually have to make war against Men as they were led by a new Enemy? Would the Nazgul have flocked to Isildur’s aid? Two of Middle Earth’s other three ringbearers, namely Elrond and Galadriel, had to be keenly aware of these dangers. It was in their explicit INTEREST to have NOBODY controlling the One Ring, so that they would be free to wield their own.

It SEEMED to be just happenstance that Isildur was caught with his pants down some time after the final showdown with Sauron. Indeed, he had already made it back home to Gondor, bringing the Ring with him, of course, before venturing out again to Gladden Fields with only a token contingent of guards.

So here’s my theory: Elrond knew what would happen to Isildur and the dangers of a new Dark Lord arising, and a disasterous new war that the Elves and free Men might not win this time. Elrond was right there at the beginning, and could see the corruption already working on Isildur as he claimed the One Ring for his own. However, he could hardly take the Ring from Isildur by force in front of all of those Men arrayed for battle. Nor could he assail Isildur once he had returned to Minas Tirith.

Furthermore, that “attack by Orcs” at Gladden Fields always struck me as just a little too neat–the newly crowned King of the most powerful kingdom in the world just happened to be wandering around undefended and far away from his kingdom–BUT not too far away from Lorien and the wily Lady of the forest.

So. The Elves somehow lured Isildur out on a lightly defended expedition and then attempted to seize the Ring by force. They shot him in the river when he tried to get away, and the Ring was lost, leaving the Elves to sweat it out for another couple of thousand years.

All this casts a new light on Elrond’s subsequent behavior, doesn’t it? All that business about protecting Isildur’s heir. And it would have been the right thing for them to do, at least in their own eyes, a fact that further persuades me that this is a viable theory.

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Middle Earth Conspiracy Theory?

Naah.

Nice try, though.

Tris

3

Then you tell me, Trisk–what would have happened if Isildur had lived and held onto the Ring?

4

Although others in this illustrious message board are titans compared to me, regarding LOTR, I will say that Isildur was going to do those things, but the ring betrayed him.

It could be possible that the ring, as part of the betrayal, influenced the elves to act that way.

5

Well, I think that it’s likely that Isildur would have become more and more corrupt and eventually tried to follow in the footsteps of the rest of the Numenorian’s and tried to asault the Valar likely with equally disastrous consequences. He’s already king of the largest empire the world has; he doesn’t need the ring to get that. I suspect that he would eventually come to feel invincible and after a while make those same errors that he had already seen personally once.

6

The Unfinished Tales book has a chapter on the disaster at Gladden Fields. Early in the battle a few of the younger scouts slip away. It is from them that we have the account that the attack was by Orcs.

7

Yep – it was probably Oswald, the lesser known bastard son of Elwing… He made the shot from the Tome Repository overlooking Gladden Fields. :wink:

8

Let’s put it this way: if the Elves hadn’t thought of killing Isildur, they should have. Really–to me this looks like a glaring oversight in the books and in the discussions thereof: the “disaster” at Gladden Fields actually headed off a disaster of unimaginible proportions, equivalent to Sauron himself getting his hands on the Ring. I’m really curious that ME aficiandos don’t talk about this, but are willing to put up with the umpteenth thread on “duhh, was Tom Bombabil the Witch King?”

9

Elrond should have tossed Isildur into the fires of Mount Doom himself when he refused to destroy the ring.

Of course, it would have been a really short book.

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Doghouse

I agree. The Ring in the hands of Isildur would have had the worst of all possible effects on Middle Earth. Sauron would remain still somewhat powerful, and incredibly pissed off. Isildur would have lived pretty much forever, with an unquenchable desire for power, and the ability of the wielder of the One to see the thoughts and deeds of the wielders of the three.

As has been shown, Sauron retained much power, even after his body was destroyed by Isildur, and it seems likely to me that the corruption of the house of Elendil by the one ring would have been easily aided by Sauron, and have been a delight to him, as well. The realms of Gondor and Anor would have grown out of all reason, and become opressive to all of mankind, and a constant danger to Elves and Dwarves.

By making constant and wide spread rebellion against this easily despised Black Numenorean Kingdom, Sauron could have guaranteed an unending war over all of Middle Earth. And in the end, Isildur would have either won, and become the Dark Lord over Men, for all time, or lost, and given to Sauron dominion over a desolate war ravaged world, where every good thing had been trampled by greed, and lust for power.

The Elves? Early in this terrible war among men, Sauron would use lies, and secrets to turn these Black Numenoreans against the Elves. And that war would probably have sent the Elves back to Aman far earlier than any other thing.

But I believe the ring was driven by the will of Sauron, and would not remain in the hands of so great an opponent, except by the application of will, entirely driven by desire for power. Evidently, Isildur was a fool, but not an evil fool, and so was betrayed and killed, to leave the ring free to seek its former master.

Or, Elrond called in some contractors from out of town, and had them deal with this upstart Numenorean.

Tris

11

This is an interesting point, and sort of damages the Elven Conspiracy theory outlined in the OP. However, since we’re speculating about alternate Middle-Earth histories and all, I think something like the following could have happened in this case:

Isildur and Elrond head to the Cracks of Doom after whacking Sauron

Elrond: So, uh, you’ll be throwing that into the Fires now, then?

Isildur: Wellllll…no. Yoink!

Elrond: I guess I’ve gotta do this, then, for Middle-Earth’s sake… lops Isildur’s head cleanly off

Elrond: Now to cast the One Ring into…hey. This thing feels kinda nice. Mmm, smooth. Precious…

And then you’ve got the situation where Elrond is the owner of the Ring. I mean, after all, [RotK spoiler] neither Frodo nor Isildur could bring themselves to destroy the ring, after both having gone through hardships to do just that, so why think Elrond would be any different?

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I thought the scene with Elrond and Isildur alone inside Mt. Doom was just a movie dramatization. I always pictured the actual scene as being somewhere down on the foot of the mountain, with Elrond and Isildur surrounded by their respective armies.

It does seem strange that Elrond would be so passive at the crucial moment.

13

Come on, there is no way he could have made that shot!
Unless it was some kind of “magical” arrow… :rolleyes:

14

Well, yeah. But being an Elf, he would have known better than to touch the thing and just tossed/pushed/tripped the ring holding Isildur off the side. No touchie.

Doghouse may very well be right. It has been awhile since I read the books. Otherwise it wasn’t the strength of Man that failed but the determination of the Elves, specificly Elrond.

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I personally don’t think Elrond was cruel enough to off his own umpty-great grand-nephew. He’d have waaaay too much 'splainin to do to Eärendil when he finally caught up with dad. And Elwing? What do you think she’d have to say? This is the Family of the Peredhil, or half-elven, for God’s sake, not the Sopranos!

No, you are forgetting the Fëanorians, gang! Particularly, Caranthir the cruel’s son by Eol’s sister, Eolina! Together they bore dark fruit, known as Copäcabano! He felt the ring rightfully belonged to the Fëanorians, and swore an oath to recapture it, and reclaim kingship of the Noldor!

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Dang nabbit Qadgop! I got out of my bed, turned on my light, turned on my computer, opened IE and then this thread to make exactly that point and you beat me be 20 mintues. Oh well, you probably said it better anyway.

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Speaking of oath-taking, Qadgop, who alone remained among the Noldor in Middle Earth among those present when Fëanor and their brothers made their fateful vow? Who partook in the Kinslaying? Who, it was later established, was sorely tempted to take possession of the One Ring? Whose own domain in later ages lay within a day’s march of Gladden Fields?!

In the words of Michael Corleone: Now who’s being naive, Qad?

18

She was just acting to preserve the House of Finwë, doghouse! OK, so she got a little jealous that she wasn’t acknowledged as Queen of the High Elves in exile. But she had the right! Her dad ruled the Noldor back home! And her uncle Fingy’s line had gotten quite dilute. She had thought that marrying her own daughter to the man who claimed kingship of the Noldor in exile would advance her own case, but it did not. Her grandsons were empty-headed adventurers, and her granddaughter was involved with a most unsuitable mortal! And she had to live in a tree, for Eru’s sake! Just like in a bad cookie commercial!

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In case the preceding references were too obscure, the answer is: Galadriel. She had the means, motive, and opportunity–and no close bond of kinship such as stayed the son of Eärendil’s hand in the valley of Gorgoroth.

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I’m still laughing at