The end of masking

The Quarantine Zone
41

…one of the things that made the New Zealand pandemic response so effective was the exemplary scientific communication. For the first few months we only heard from two people: the Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern and the Director-General of Health Dr Ashley Bloomfield. For about three months they fronted in tandem to do the 1PM daily briefings. They became so iconic that people (jokingly) put up a IMDB page, and the reviews, while humorous, are surprisingly on-point.

Ardern and Bloomfield would stand up to the press every single day and answer a barrage of both relevant and inane questioning: if they knew the answer they would answer it plainly there and then: no waffle, no spin, just answers.

And at the beginning of our first lockdown the Prime Minister would literally put her baby to bed then hop on Facebook live in the evenings to answer questions from the public. No filter, no moderator, no spin.

And they did all of this off the cuff, they both clearly understood the underlying science but never used jargon like “r numbers”, they kept everything simple, understandable and relatable.

Fauci is an outstanding scientist. He is a poor science communicator. And the roll-out of the “end of masking” has been, IMHO, abysmal.

The pundits I’ve been following suggest that the reason for the change in guidance is that vaccination rates are stagnating, so they hope to get an uptake in vaccinations by using “the end of masking” as incentive. (this is obviously speculation). Its a high stakes gamble that I don’t think will pay off.

This isn’t about knowing better than Fauci or the doctors at the CDC. Its about effective science communication, its about effective strategy. I’ve watched Fauci from the start and he really isn’t that good at communicating at a level that can be understood by the people that need to hear what he has to say. If you want to contrast the messaging that we got and what you see in America you can see some of the daily briefings here.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/tv-radio/123365606/coronavirus-the-top-10-covid19-briefings-of-2020

The decisions on when to end masking should have been left to individual states and districts.

42

I am confused. My own position here is utterly undecided. For those of you who think this is way, way too early, is it because you think that

  1. There is so much COVID around that even vaccinated people need to wear masks to protect themselves because vaccines are still not perfect
  2. Vaccinated people need to wear masks to protect others in case they have an asymptomatic case
  3. It’s probably personally safe for a vaccinated person to go maskless, but we need to continue to all mask up because social pressure on the non-vaccinated needs to be maintained to prevent spikes within that group.

If it’s three, I gotta say, I hate being lied to. Tell me to wear a mask to encourage others, fine. I will. But don’t chicken-little me as a form of social engineering.

43

For me, it’s that the anti-vax and COVID denying idiots will just stop wearing masks. They’ll just lie about their vaccine status.

On the other hand, everyone close to me who is eligible to be vaccinated is either fully vaxxed or will be so within a few weeks, so if the idiots want to endanger themselves, whatever.

On the gripping hand, if they are out there just brewing COVID variants in their effort to prove that evolution is real, they remain a danger to all of us. And, of course, kids, allergic, and immuno-compromised people remain at risk, and the maskless liars will be a danger to them.

ETA: To be clear, I think the CDC should be honest with their assessment that the vaccinated can go maskless. That doesn’t necessarily mean they should change their advice (wearing masks inside, for example) given the number of people who won’t get vaccinated and will lie about it.

44

Minnesota is announcing the removal of the mandate today. Originally they were going to when wait until a 70% vaccination rate statewide (we’re there only for first vaccines in the metro counties for adults), but now they’re doing it immediately.

Back at the start of this the pro-maskers said we should have been listening to the experts that said we had to wear masks and not Trump, now they’re saying we shouldn’t be listening to the experts because, I guess, we should be wearing masks for the rest of our lives.

To the average person you’re sending the message that either the masks or the vaccines don’t work if you say we need both, and you’re punishing the people that have made the choice to get vaccinated by having them continue to wear masks.

45

Fully vaccinated mask wearer here. My business continues to require a mask to enter, as well. I’ve had two or three people who argued that they were vaccinated, I told them I didn’t care. One woman eventually told to GTFO.

46

I assume we’re all pro-maskers here on the SDMB. Do I have that wrong?

That’s not what I got from this thread. To me, it’s that many people don’t trust the anti-vax idiots to tell the truth about their vaccine status. If anything, they’re implying Fauci is naïve to think that he can trust that 30 or 40% of the population to do the right thing (keep wearing a mask since they’re not vaccinated).

47

Can we actually see this? I mean, I’m sure there are anecdotal examples, but Youyang Gu, who has been one of the more accurate pandemic modelers and doesn’t seem to have any particular ideological agenda, crunched the numbers and didn’t find any difference between states with and without mask mandates.

48

I think the part I put in bold is one of the problems, the fact that wearing a mask is seen as a punishment. Getting the vaccine is good for a number of personal health and community reasons, but because people are doubtful about them, we are incentivizing it by giving them free stuff and for some people the free stuff is to no longer wear a mask, when really the benefit of the vaccine is not to get sick.

Me, I will continue wearing a mask for the near term at all the public places I was wearing it before, but feel more comfortable removing it around certain people that are not part of my immediate family. I may still wear it there too though.

//i\\

49

My feeling is that I think it’s naive to think the CDC has somehow glossed over this rather obvious point in their calculation. With the way they’ve conducted themselves through the pandemic, I see no reason to start mistrusting them now. At any rate, I’m doing whatever the local laws are – I suspect Chicago may take a little time to fully lift the mask mandate.

50

I haven’t seen it. When Texas dropped their mandate, there was little change, while NJ had yet another wave and, at least in my town, mask compliance has been very good in here in NJ.

51

There are lots of people who can “not get sick” by means of extreme social isolation. And many others who can radically reduce their risk the same way. The benefit of the vaccine is getting your life back.

52

I hope you’re right! I’m pretty tired of wearing a mask and I would love to get some benefits for my fully vaccinated status.

53

Not only will the denialists stop wearing masks, Tucker Carlson will rant on his show that the new CDC guidance proves that masks were never necessary, that it’s all a hoax, that it was always control and nothing else, etc., etc.

I listened just ten minutes ago on WNYC/NPR to an epidemiologist say that she believed the new guidelines were premature. The New York times reports today (sorry, paywalled, although you can read a few stories for free) that hundreds of epidemiologists surveyed just a couple of weeks ago did not think that we were ready to go mask free in all settings.

So I don’t know what to make of all this. Like others in this thread, I think the new guidelines rely too heavily on the cooperation of others, including wingnuts, denialists and the just plain stupid.

54

Who gives a shit what Fucker Carlson has to say? He was going to say something like that whenever the mask mandate was lifted. It matters not to me what the idiots have to say, as they’ll find one way to say it or another, no matter the circumstance.

55

Well, not you, obviously. And not me. I’m hardly looking to him for guidance on anything.

But lots of people, unfortunately, do give a shit what Tucker Carlson says, and will be guided in their behavior by his bullshit. And that will affect me.

56

The point is, no matter what the CDC does, the narrative will be masks were never needed. So even if we stipulate some people do care what he says, he’s still saying the same thing no matter what we do.

57

In what sense do you worry it will affect you? In the sense that they will keep COVID circulating longer and so you may eventually catch it despite being vaccinated, or in the sense that they will keep getting COVID with all the more diffused negative consequences that has on our society?

58

In the sense of-

  1. Keeping it around long enough to affect others that the vaccine didn’t work too well on,
  2. Keeping it around long enough that a nasty mutation of the virus develops.
59

Okay. So you are in the camp that “even though me wearing a mask won’t really affect things, I think I (and other vaccinated people) should, and arguably should be compelled to, for the good of society”.

I’m totally fine with that as public health policy, but if that’s the policy, that’s how it should be said: they shouldn’t tell people “Even though you are vaccinated, you aren’t 100% safe, so don’t change much”. That’s 1) untrue 2) makes the whole situation seem hopeless.

I also think we should have SOME designated end point that is not dependent on the behavior of others–so not “masks until X% are vaccinated”, but more “masks until community infection levels drop below X/100k”. At some point, we have to decide there is an acceptable risk level.

60

Both.

I live in a very densely populated area (New York City). I occasionally travel around the city using the subway. That involves a degree of risk for me. Perhaps a small degree, but not non-existent.

And my father is 88 years old and resident in a memory care facility. He’s been vaccinated – nursing home residents were the first people eligible in this state – but there’s still some risk. And just about everyone in that place has a co-morbidity, given the age of the residents. And there are probably some residents who haven’t been vaccinated, since I understand that for some people, delaying vaccination is recommended. People on some immunosuppressant drugs, or some kinds of chemotherapy. Given the age of the residents, there’s bound to be a few of those.

I work in an office. I will be returning to the office next week. That’s another level of risk, since I’ll be indoors, with other people. I expect mask-wearing and social distancing will be enforced by my firm no matter what the CDC says, but I’m not sure.

I have a sibling who’s an anti-vaxxer (not all vaccines, just this vaccine). He listens to Carlson. He wants to visit our father. He wants to see my kids, who are too young for this vaccination (they’ve had all the other vaccinations, on the age-appropriate schedule, of course).

And I worry about him getting it. And his wife. And her two adult sons, who may or may not be anti-vaxxers (I don’t know them well), with whom my brother and his wife spend a lot of time.

I mean, he’s my brother. I can’t just say, “fuck him, right wing nut, I don’t care if he gets it.”

Yes, he’s a Trumpist loon. I worry about him anyway (even more because he’s a Trumpist loon, actually).

And I’d love to live in a world where we’ve put this behind us. I don’t think I’m ever going to live in that world. I’m over 60, so I suspect that means it won’t happen in my lifetime. Maybe in my children’s lifetime. I sure hope so.