The End of my PC Building Era

The BBQ Pit
1

Hi, it’s me, Una. Some of you still remember the person I used to be, most only see the always angry me now.

One thing which makes me angry is building home computers. Let me tell you a tale.

In very late 2005 I built two computers, one for me and one for Fierra. I did months of research and comparison, digging deep to find the best and most stable, trouble-free, and high performance components. I did not spare expense, buying top-quality equipment all around. Times 2, because I was building two identical computers.

SO I bought everything, and tried to assemble them. My main goal was this - get a good gaming system with 1.3TB of RAID drives (not that much, but then this was in 2005), a good DVD burner, and above all, have it keep my data safe.

I spent a month trying to build the systems, following instruction, calling the company, reading the FAQs, and could not succeed. Here is an example of what I faced then.

I initially set up the computer RAID 5 using the Silicon Image RAID controller (henceforth called “SIRAID”). This had the odd habit of losing redundancy, and requiring a rebuild (which means that the PC MUST be left on for about 36 hours straight, because if you power it down, it starts over from scratch.) Since I had a whole other RAID controller (the “main” NVIDIA RAID, henceforth called “NVRAID”), on-board I decided to use that instead. I had done extensive testing on every other component of the computer, and the only thing that came up as flaky was the SIRAID when I used it in mode 5.

Here’s my narrative.

Months pass. Seasons change. The PC sits, unused. Finally, this last week, Fierra’s PC, the clone of the first one, has had far too many RAID failures, so I decide it’s time to get a new computer.

Again, I research, etc. etc. And try to build things again. Here’s what happened.

First off, this supposedly name-brand motherboard gave extremely confusing information on its website, in its manual (which I downloaded and read in its entirety in advance), and in reviews of it. People claimed it supported 4 RAID devices, and it only supports 2. That’s a show-stopper, and I might go ahead and get a different one by them, but then we come to the next phase.

Second off, there is apparently NO WAY IN HELL to use an IDE DVD/CD when you have the RAID devices activated. It simply cannot be done. It says you can, in comically broken English, but there is no way to use the information they give to make it work. Plus the fact that the basic system things like this are supposed to be basic.

Third, the USB drivers that came with the Board disable USB under Windows, and there is no earthly way to get it back. Again, the comically stupid instructions say to get rid of the question marks in Device manager by “removing them.” Gosh, that’s helpful - “fix your problem by solving it.” The problem is, the Setup utility that installs the motherboard chipset drivers automatically installs the bad USB drivers - there’s no option not to. So the chipset drivers don’t update, because then I have no USB.

Fourth, there is a device called the SM Bus driver. It took 2 hours to get it to install, because every time I installed the driver that came with the MB, the USB ports would shut off. Finally, for no apparent reason, it stopped whining.

Fifth, there is supposed to be a hard drive monitoring utility. But it doesn’t actually seem to exist.

Sixth, the Ethernet driver on board has a driver installed on the CD that does not work. If you download the latest driver from the MB manufacturer, it still doesn’t work. Fierra finally went to the ethernet chipset manufacturer’s website, and found a driver that reluctantly worked.

So what I have now is a system which is designed for RAID and yet cannot run RAID. Which has drivers that do not work. Which has broken items in Device manager giving me warnings all the time. Which has a user manual that’s a joke, online help that’s almost as bad, and yet all over the net there are dinguses writing glowing reviews of the board…

I have failed. All I want is this - a motherboard that;

  1. Runs RAID with 4 disks.
  2. Has drivers that it comes with or you can download that will let you install Windows XP.
  3. Is modern and uses dual-core CPUs.

That’s it. That’s really fucking it. And yet I failed. I’m approaching $2500 of sunk cost and absolutely no benefit. It’s not even the money, it’s the principle. WHY can I buy name-brand motherboards that get great reviews, and they all suck? WHY CAN’T I get the most basic, fundamental things that should have been working decades ago to work? WHY CAN’T driver discs have drivers on them for the motherboard you buy? WHY CAN’T the manufacturer find anyone, anyone at all who speaks fucking English when they’re selling a board for the US market?

Tomorrow, the whole thing goes back to the store, and I (try to) get a refund. But where do I go from here? I try to buy name-brand things I research and get reviews on, and I have to deal with insanity? And it’s not just these boards - I read all the time about people saying “board X ships with audio drivers that don’t actually work” or something - how can that be allowed to happen??? I guess this means I finally have to admit I’m worthless. I cannot deal with the insanity of what are supposed to be well-built pieces of high technology that appear to be designed by, have drivers written by, and manuals written by retarded assgoblins.

2

Well, in the near future, nobody is really going to be able to build their own PCs. Why, do you ask? Because in order to ensure DRM compliance with HD content, you’re simply not going to be able to buy certain pieces of hardware seperately. IOW, if the PC you bought doesn’t originally come with it, you’re SOL. That’s a smart marketing move, doncha think?

Now, for a little bit of advice that might be practicable. Check out Maximum PC, I pick up their magazines every now and then and they do pretty intensive hardware write ups as well as build uberPCs from scratch, so they have a good idea of what works and what doesn’t. Also, Linux Hardware. Yeah, I know, you’re not running Linux, but a lot of times the only way someone can get hardware working under Linux is if they write the drivers from scratch (if possible). The site has a lot of info on hardware, so you should be able to get a good idea if what you want to do is possible.

3

Most “hardware” raid controllers aren’t really hardware raid, especially on the SATA/PATA side. A good rule of thumb is that if it costs less than a hundred bucks, it’s the storage version of a Winmodem.

If you need an OS driver for it, it’s probably trash.

That goes double for onboard controllers.

My suggestion is some kind of software raid. Linux md has been rock solid for me. I’m currently in a theological argument with one of the other admins at work about whether we’re going to go with the onboard SAS raid controller in our upcoming hardware refresh-slash-UNIX to Linux migration.

I’m on the side of md - among other things, it means there’s no controller to lose. And since most of IBM’s controllers are integrated these days, it means we won’t have to replace a fucking system board if the controller dies.

If I were you, I’d try Linux on it, just for shits and giggles. Set up md at install time on Debian, so you get the right kernel, and use one of the machines as a SMB server. It shouldn’t take more than an hour if you know what you’re doing.

4

RAID is overrated. I’ve never encountered a RAID that works as promised - they are more likely to fail than any individual hard drive.

I keep away, and advise others to do so also (though they never listen, and end up paying for it).

5

If you really have the 3K to spend on a computer, and you really don’t enjoy the building experience, I’d suggest calling Falcon Northwest. They have a good website but if you call them you can tell them specifically what you need in a raid setting and they’ll work with you. They’re terrifically helpful people. Actual English speaking humans answer the phone. I was amazed. I’ve had a Talon for two years now and it still runs like silk.

Anyway, the Falcon Talon system is running around $1800 right now and the MachV starts at $2500. I’d say it’s worth paying extra to get the nvidia 8800 card rather than the 7600 since you’ll want Dx10 probably sooner than you think.

As for why this or that piece doesn’t work right/doesn’t come with needed stuff/doesn’t have a Slot B for Tab D/doesn’t have manuals in any known Earth language - assgoblins is a good an explanation as any. Do not taunt them. They have a wider range than you might think.

6

There must have been a good call center in Kenya that could have solved your problems lickety-split.

7

Time to get a Dell.

8

Adell who?
(You forgot to include your rolleyes smiley.)

9

Fuck me running, I’m thinking of getting a Mac. YES, a Mac. If it has RAID5 that works and 3TB of drive space, I’ll consider it. I don’t even care about games any more. Games are for the weak. All I want is peace.

10

Let me summarize the parts of the OP I understood:

I can’t help you with the technical issues but have you considered a different brand of underwear?

11

Can I ask what brand of mobo you were using?

And while I’m at it, can I ask why you didn’t spring for a copy of XP SP2? I realize you already had/have a copy, but $140 might have saved a lot of hassles (the USB and drive array problems, for example).

And I’m going to differ on the Falcon NW recommendation. For the specs, they are overpriced. Support is nice, but it ain’t worth what they charge for it.

12

Just for the record, what are you doing that uses 1.3TB of storage? The next Star Wars sequel?

13

Raid is overrated, but for a home system, I would agree on going software raid. I’ve heard surprisingly good things about it, even under windows.

Something with a nice Nforce 650 chipset should do SATA 4 drives IDE 2 drives, RAID and all that.

If you want to try to fix the existing computer, I have two simple solutions.

First, build a slipstreamed SP2 XP install. Saved me more trouble than I can think of.

This solves ALL problems. Or lots of them. Gives you a copy of XP SP2 you can install from, nice and easy. Really. REALLY easy. Fixes most of the stupid hard drive problems, too.

Second, maybe a SATA CD-ROM drive might help… or not.

But really. Build that XP SP2 CD. It’s easy!

14

The first two were ASUS, and the current shambling atrocity was a Gigabyte.

Well, I have several legal copies of XP, so I’m loathe to get another one. And as it turned out, even after I was able to get SP2 installed on either computer, it did not fix the USB and drive issues. In the latest case, I was actually using an SP2 installation, and still no dice. The problem was the drivers of the USB and motherboard over-writing the Windows drivers every time, and the manu-fucking-facturer’s own drivers failing on their own hardware.

15

Ah, when tired maturity outweighs the reckless abandon of youth. As a plus benefit, you’ll have a rock solid operating system that is by default more secure than Windows. (Although, with the Intel Macs, you can do that too, if you like.)

I resisted going to Apple for years based upon my experiences with pre-OSX operating systems, and was only persuaded to buy a PowerBook out of frustration of trying to get Linux or FreeBSD to run properly on the proprietary, anti-standard hardware of your average laptop. Now I have Unix-y goodness that talks to my other systems without mumbling AND a stable, well thought out, unobtrusive OS.

Plus, if you keep a sense of humor about you and don’t become some kind of zealot, you can enjoy humor at the expense of both Mac and Windows campaigners.

Stranger

16

I have a huge amount of public domain (legal) movies and such, as well as multiple backups of the UnaBoard and the UnaLouvre (6GB per), work laptop backups (11GB per) and cross-redundancy with Fierra’s computer (200GB reserved). I was using 1.3TB in RAID1, giving me about 660GB effective.

~

I commented that for this install (the last one) I was working with XPSP2 in the last post, I neglected to mention that it did not matter in the OP. However, this needs response.

You, sir, are Lord Satan. I was tempted, oh dear how I was tempted. But I just couldn’t do it. I couldn’t spend more money when so many other things were going wrong. And I have a fantastic (the only item which, when Windows recognizes it, has no problems) DVD+/-RW. So I decided not to. Plus…I mean, dude! Think about the madness - a standard DVD on a standard IDE bus which is installed on the motherboard, does not work when you use RAID. What kind of sickness is that? What’s next, “mouse does not work when keyboard is in use?”

17

It’s tempting. Why am I fighting so hard? I should just give up. I’ll bet Apple Mac folks are laughing so hard at my OP they can’t even type a response, and they’d be right to be laughing. Imagine - drivers made by a manufacturer, shipped on a CD with the item, that don’t work? ZIP files that don’t unzip? Horrifying mis-spelled text on critical help screens (my fav of the night “WARNNING! Ethernett is installed now! Patience is expected! Copy driver and disk reboot? (Yes/No)?” (ironically, this message pops up as it fails to install the Ethernet driver…). RAID drives that fail with every sunrise. DVD drives that fade in and out like Kirk in the Tholian Web? Competing audio devices that don’t work, CPU fans that make noises like a sack full of doorknobs in a garbage disposal? This from $200 and up “tier 1” motherboards?

Apple folks, laugh at me and my woe. For I may join you soon.

18

My Inspiron doesn’t come with one of those. No rolleyes smileys unless you buy the platinum service plan.

19

I buiild my own, and I’ve probably replaced my main box five or six times with motherboard, CPU, video card and hard drive replacements. This is probably going to be it for now, though; I’ve got the urge to get a Mac again.

20

If you’re going for a Mac, I suggest you check out Mac Tactic as it has a pretty good track record of what Mac’s are going to be discontinued. Also, check out Leo Laporte’s Mac Break Weekly podcasts which have all kinds of info about Macs. If you want, I can supply you with the email addy of a buddy of mine who’s a Mac expert (No shit, when the folks at the Mac stores see him come in, they turn their customers over to him because he knows more than they do.), who’ll no doubt be able to tell you more than you want to know about Macs from a technical side. He does high end video editing (amongst other things) with the Macs he as at work.