The Enterprise VS. Star-Destroyer

[enigmatic]

God, this is geeky, even for me.

I don’t see any way to ignore the fact that almost all the “figures” previously referenced are blatantly contradicted by what happens on screen and in other canon sources (your shields are down but your armor is still barely holding up against volleys of multi gigaton laser blasts?, really?), so I’m just going to ignore the figures

Based on what is generally shown on screen, Star Trek seems to have a clear advantage, the ships can move and engage at extreme range at all velocities up to ludicrous multiples of light-speed, they have beam weaponry and warp speed projectiles and they have transporter and replica technology that it is difficult to justify Star Wars universe shields protecting against. They also appear to have massively superior computer systems in all respects excepting possibly AI (although Data seems far superior to most star wars droids, he is something of a special case, and I’m sure a certain short blue robotic Gary Stu could totally take him), which doesn’t seem to be used for anything apart from droids in the Star Wars universe. In contrast Star Wars ships are generally portrayed as manoeuvring slowly when not in hyperspace and firing volleys of slow moving “laser” projectiles from what are essentially WWII space cannons.

This is somewhat balanced by the fact that Star Fleet captains seem to be exhaustively trained in ignoring all the advantages and possibility’s inherent in their tech. Considering that Star Wars is supposed to be space opera, and Star Trek allegedly harder science fiction, star wars technology is portrayed far more consistently (at least throughout the films and television stuff).

As I’ve said before, one of the biggest problem with Star Trek is that it was saddled very early on, by writers that didn’t understand the implications, with technology that is absolutely incompatible with the types of story they are wanting tell and the type of universe they are wanting to tell it in. There is very little significant difference between the technology portrayed in Star Trek, and that in say, The Culture, other than how intelligently it is actually used.

So instead Star Trek gets saddled with moronic character and hand wave justifications for the failure to use their cool toys, which are constantly undermined when the writer of the week suddenly decides that he can finish his script off with the characters having a revelation that in universe is treated as amazing genius, but would actually have occurred to an actual engineer or nominally bright seven year old within about 15 seconds of the invention of the transporter. And then everyone conveniently forgets that they can, for example , resurrect their dead crew members at will, in time for next weeks show :smack:.

Can you tell that this is something that bugs me?

[CandidGamera]

This gets even better. I started poking around on the one guy’s site I linked to, and it’s a gold mine.

http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWcompare.html

• That’s the updated comparison sheet. With cites.

http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWICS.html

• Debunks the “Incredible Cross-Sections” series completely as non-canon, and written with an agenda.

http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSW-WeaponRange.html

• Beautifully illustrates the disgusting range advantage that the Federation has.

[enigmatic]

From the above links.

Others have questioned the result from Dr. Saxton’s colloboration over the years with pro-Wars and Warsie debaters heavily involved in the Trek vs. Wars debates, such as Wong and Poe. We know that Saxton was assisted by them in developing the firepower figures used in the ICS, given the mention in their private anti-Trek mailing group that they calculated figures for the ICS. The group had a stated goal of making Star Wars look better than Trek, technologically. And, of course, there is Saxton’s own participation in Vs. Debates in years past, in which he derided Star Trek fans and pro-Trek debaters. The pro-Wars side of the debate contributed greatly to the upward revision of the definition of “Base Delta Zero” which Saxton uses, as well as Jedi fighter firepower numbers based on false assumptions of later fighter firepower, and many other inflated claims. In short, Saxton’s work was sullied by falsehoods and may even have been intentionally geared towards inflating Star Wars beyond Star Trek levels.

I kinda wish that actual academics would tend to get this passionate about actual science.

[vdgg81]

Years ago I wandered into one of these debates and found stardestroyer.net (the site of the Wong mentioned in the above post) and Dr. Saxton’s site. They were enough to put me firmly in the Star Wars side of the debate and I haven’t had a change of heart since. That said, I’m a lawyer, so if they’re doing funny stuff with their calculations I’d never know. They did seem more serious and thorough than most other sites I looked at at the time, even if Mike Wong is very clearly engaged in the debate and very passionate about it.

Here’s a link to Wong’s comparative overview of Star Wars and Star Trek technology. He provides figures and calculations on how he arrived at each of those figures, so if somebody here who actually understands the stuff could take a look at it it’d be great.

I’m convinced and it seems to me that the only advantage the Enterprise would have would be greater maneuverability. My take is that the destroyer crushes any federation ship.

[enigmatic]

I have no intention of peer reviewing a Star Wars fan website (especially since I’m not a physicist). But your links don’t really make a very persuasive argument, and certainly don’t represent a sufficiently systematic, balanced, and unbiased case to get published by anyone other than the lowest impact factor Star Wars fan journals :D.

Leaving aside the obvious but boring detail that this shit isn’t real, you could probably choose to accept the absurd firepower and shield figures and argue that the Star Destroyers shields couldn’t be breached by the Enterprises weapons (or indeed anything else that will ever exist anywhere, as some writers clearly shouldn’t be allowed to play with exponentiation). But it’s going to be difficult to avoid the conclusion that the Imperial’s finest are going to have trouble hitting an enemy that can engage them at supralight speed from millions of kilometres away when they have basically got an on screen record of failing to hit everything that they have ever fired at.

Reconciling this with Starfleet’s noted strategy of sitting the ship at rest and within the range of a wide angle camera shot relative to anything dangerous looking, proceeding to do absolutely nothing as it pounds on them down to the magic hull integrity number that signifies certain death, and then running away, is left to an exercise for the viewer.

[AncientHumanoid]

Strong the Force is with Wesley Crusher.

[markdash]

@enigmatic

God, this is geeky, even for me.

The Culture

My knowledge of Culture literature is somewhat limited (Consider Phlebas, The Player of Games, The State of the Art, Use of Weapons). Are there any culture novels which describe the fighting capacity of GSVs (or other Culture ships)?

All I remember is that they are Really. Freaking. Big. (like 50 miles long, or somesuch).

[Miller]

@CandidGamera

Sigh. As to the range, the Enterprise’s Photon Torpedoes outrange the Star Destroyers armaments. I know some little book came out in the last ten years that may say differently, but before that, other books had it the other way. You can believe whatever you like.

I don’t think I’ve ever seen either franchise make any note about the range of their guns. Of course, I can’t think of any film or television sf that has any sort of idea about the sort of ranges that would be involved in space combat, so this one is a wash.

As to speed, the text of Star Wars suggests that Hyperspeed = Light Speed. But even if you handwave that as slang (or acknowledge it as Lucas not knowing a damn thing about anything) - Star Wars vessels are DAMN slow in sublight and can only jump to hyperspace with preparation. (If you need evidence of that, I suggest watching any one of the Star Wars films.) The Enterprise’s speed and maneuverability is more in line with a Fighter in the SW Universe, than one of the Capital Ships.

What’s your evidence that the Enterprise is particularly maneuverable? I’ve never seen them do any fancy flying hijinks in any of the movies or television episodes. Mostly, they sit in one place and shoot at other stationary targets. Now, if we’re talking about the Defiant, yeah, that was a much more mobile ship than your standard Federation capital ship, but that’s not the fight going on in this thread.

As to sensors, A Star Destroyer can’t distinguish the Millenium Falcon from their own garbage. The Enterprise can detect a precise count of every individual lifeform on a planet.

I’ll grant this one, although it does seem trivially easy to disrupt Federation sensors. A dust storm pretty much fucks them up every time.

As to shields, a Star Destroyer apparently can’t stop an A-Wing fighter from taking out its bridge. The Enterprise’s passive shields - for space debris - repel lasers.

The Executioner got “taken out” by an A-Wing after a lengthy battle with the entire Rebel fleet, during which it was the Rebel’s primary target: remember Ackbar’s, “Concentrate all fire on that Super Star Destroyer”? When the A-Wing hits, the SSD’s shield have already been battered down by the withering barrage of enemy fire.

(This is a straight-up fanwank, but I always felt that scene of the big globe being blown up right before the SSD tanks was misinterpreted. Blowing up the globe isn’t what made the shields go down - the shields going down is what allowed the globe to get blown up.)

As for “prove it”? Why? Everytime someone does, some Lucas nerd writes a new book to move the goalposts.

Because that’s the point of the thread? You do get that there’s isn’t a “right” answer to this question, don’t you?

[RickJay]

@vdgg81

Here’s a link to Wong’s comparative overview of Star Wars and Star Trek technology. He provides figures and calculations on how he arrived at each of those figures, so if somebody here who actually understands the stuff could take a look at it it’d be great.

Most of this crap isn’t in the movies. Sun Crusher? C’mon.

[enigmatic]

My knowledge of Culture literature is somewhat limited (Consider Phlebas, The Player of Games, The State of the Art, Use of Weapons). Are there any culture novels which describe the fighting capacity of GSVs (or other Culture ships)?

All I remember is that they are Really. Freaking. Big. (like 50 miles long, or somesuch).

The most recent book has a fairly detailed description of a major engagement involving a single culture warship and a lot of other lower tier civilization ships. I won’t spoil it, but it makes a solid case for Culture ships belonging in a slightly higher weight class than the other contenders in this thread.

What’s your evidence that the Enterprise is particularly maneuverable? I’ve never seen them do any fancy flying hijinks in any of the movies or television episodes. Mostly, they sit in one place and shoot at other stationary targets. Now, if we’re talking about the Defiant, yeah, that was a much more mobile ship than your standard Federation capital ship, but that’s not the fight going on in this thread.

The Enterprise is frequently described as moving and manoeuvring at full or half impulse which is pretty consistently described as an appreciable fraction of light speed (50%? 25%? I’m not sure which). The ships are also depicted firing weapons and engaging in combat whilst in warp (it’s a significant plot point in at least one episode).

Like I said, it’s difficult to reconcile this with the actual behaviour of the actual captains in most episodes, but this is probably related to the difficulties inherit in engaging the average network television viewer with the magic of relativity and really complicated diagrams on a weekly basis.

[robert_columbia]

@footballisplayedwithyourfeet

Wouldn’t Darth Vader just break or overheat the warpcore with the Force? Especially if you read some of the Star Wars books, there is no stopping the Force.

“You don’t need to attack us.”

“This isn’t the starship you’re looking for.”

“Lower your shields.”

<boom>

[robert_columbia]

@Mr.Excellent

No - he’s from France, and his family owns a vinyard, but it’s pretty clear that the Picards descend for the first generation of the British (re)conquest of France. Since we never see any actual Francophones in the series, we’re left to conclude that the conduct of the Glorious Reconquest was … less than entirely in keeping with modern norms on the humane conduct of war.

Data can speak French fluently.

[Miller]

@enigmatic

The Enterprise is frequently described as moving and manoeuvring at full or half impulse which is pretty consistently described as an appreciable fraction of light speed (50%? 25%? I’m not sure which). The ships are also depicted firing weapons and engaging in combat whilst in warp (it’s a significant plot point in at least one episode).

Moving in a straight line, really really fast, isn’t maneuverability. CandidGamera said the Enterprise is as maneuverable as a Star Wars fighter. I don’t think that’s a supportable claim - the Enterprise can go fast, and it can engage other targets that are moving at roughly the same speed and direction as it is, but I can’t think of any time I’ve seen the Enterprise perform a high speed turns, or engage an immobile object at warp speeds. Barring canon evidence to the contrary, it seems likely to me that the latter isn’t possible: if you’re moving at a multiple of the speed of light, a stationary target as small as a capital ship is going to go past you so fast I don’t think it would be possible even for the ship’s computer to target it: and most of the targeting on Star Trek seems to be done by humans. You might be able to hit a planet with such tactics, but even that seems unlikely.

Of course, “possible” isn’t really a design consideration for either fleet, so that doesn’t mean too much.

[markdash]

@enigmatic

The most recent book has a fairly detailed description of a major engagement involving a single culture warship and a lot of other lower tier civilization ships. I won’t spoil it, but it makes a solid case for Culture ships belonging in a slightly higher weight class than the other contenders in this thread.

It only makes sense that if you’re talking about “conventional” weapons (if science-fiction weaponry can even be considered “conventional”), a ship that’s 50 miles long wouldn’t be seriously threatened by some laser blasts (unless those blasts are coming from the Death Star). It would take nuclear weaponry, or perhaps a drop of Red Matter.

[KneadToKnow]

@NoClueBoy

Strong the Force is with Wesley Crusher.

You.

Out.

[enigmatic]

It only makes sense that if you’re talking about “conventional” weapons (if science-fiction weaponry can even be considered “conventional”), a ship that’s 50 miles long wouldn’t be seriously threatened by some laser blasts (unless those blasts are coming from the Death Star). It would take nuclear weaponry, or perhaps a drop of Red Matter.

The Culture trademark weapons are “effectors” which are basically star trek style replicators and transporters wielded by someone smarter than Kirk, they can switch your engines off, teleport you into space or transmute your captain into a pillar of salt from a few light years away. But it (and the ships that it is fighting) are probably carrying enough “conventional” weaponry to crack a planet in half. The culture ships depicted in the books can be incredibly big, but it doesn’t change the probability that the Culture equivalent of a shuttlepod could most likely wipe the floor with the entirety of Starfleet and the Imperial navy at the same time.

Moving in a straight line, really really fast, isn’t maneuverability. CandidGamera said the Enterprise is as maneuverable as a Star Wars fighter. I don’t think that’s a supportable claim - the Enterprise can go fast, and it can engage other targets that are moving at roughly the same speed and direction as it is, but I can’t think of any time I’ve seen the Enterprise perform a high speed turns, or engage an immobile object at warp speeds.

It doesn’t really matter how manoeuvrable the enterprise is, if it can change direction at all at impulse speeds, let alone warp (which I’m pretty sure it is shown to do multiple times, but am absolutely not committed enough to this debate to actually go check) it can run rings around the star destroyer (they just might be exceedingly large rings :D). Regardless the imperial gunners are hardly going to hit it.

Barring canon evidence to the contrary, it seems likely to me that the latter isn’t possible: if you’re moving at a multiple of the speed of light, a stationary target as small as a capital ship is going to go past you so fast I don’t think it would be possible even for the ship’s computer to target it: and most of the targeting on Star Trek seems to be done by humans. You might be able to hit a planet with such tactics, but even that seems unlikely.

Starfleet ships have certainly been shown to launch torpedoes in warp, and given that a torpedo is essentially a smaller, angrier, spaceship, the fact that the Enterprise is normally depicted as being able to warp straight to the location of another ship strongly suggests that it can likewise hit one with torpedoes while in warp.

[YogSothoth]

There’s few instances of the Enterprise being manueverable seen onscreen, but you see it a few times when the situation calls for it.

In the TNG episode where they were racing with the Cardassians and the Klingons to discover what turned out to be the galactic progenitors for all humanoid races, the Enterprise made a quick 180 degree or so turn from a still position then sped into warp.

In The Best of Both Worlds, the Enterprise went from facing the Borg Cube to turning and immediately going to warp. They’ve done that in the first episode as well, trying to get away from Q’s sphere.

Larger space battles involving ships of similar size happened also in The Best of Both Worlds and the first episode of DS9, where snippets of the fight between the Borg Cube and the Federation ships can be seen. Also in the movie First Contact. The ships were pretty manueverable as seen when they were fighting

They can go from warp to full stop in a matter of seconds too. Not really seen much onscreen but Picard goes from warp to all stop which happens practically instantly

And if people want to bring in Jedi powers, ST can just bring in the Q. It’s not really relevent as the discussion is about technology. If Vade could force choke people on another starship, I’m sure he would have done it to all those rebel ship captains or the fighters he was chasing around

Personally, I’ve always believed that SW takes the whole power levels to a more ridiculous and less sciency level so it would probably win in a fight, but ST adheres to science more closely, so it doesn’t get to fudge all those things and blow up planets with one shot. I mean, seriously, the Death Star’s supposed to produce more energy than our sun does in 7000 years? Where is it even getting it’s matter from to convert to energy? I’m supposed to just believe that when nothing onscreen is consistent with that statement?

[Miller]

@YogSosoth

And if people want to bring in Jedi powers, ST can just bring in the Q.

Since when does Q do Star Fleet’s bidding?

[AncientHumanoid]

@Miller

Since when does Q do Star Fleet’s bidding?

Amanda Rogers would do it for a date with Riker.

:dubious:

[Algher]

@NoClueBoy

Amanda Rogers would do it for a date with Riker.

:dubious:

Han would steal her away in a parsec.