In the U.S., all males are asked to register for the draft when they turn 18. As far as I know, no one is required, per se, to do so (correct me if I’m wrong). What the government has done to get people to register for the draft is to tie it to student aid (beginning during Reagan’s term, I believe); you can’t get college money from the government unless to sign up to be drafted.
I’m going to college right now, and I need my student aid to pay for it. However, I am also: (1) morally opposed to the draft, (2) aesthetically opposed to a military lifestyle, (3) unpatriotic, and (4) afraid of being shot. Consequently, I know that I would almost certainly wish to dodge the draft in the event that one was issued – either by going to Canada or (if I’m feeling indignant) by burning my draft card (or, if one is not available, a flag) on the steps of the Capitol building.
Despite that fact that I would be renegging on my promise to serve if called (or forced, if you prefer), I see no ethical problem with this. All bureaucracies have a limited jurisdiction; I find making student aid dependent on military service to be disingenuous and invalid. It is an utterly abusive system and I see no problem with abusing it if I have to.
Anyway, I’m quite at ease with my decision, and no one here is likely to change my mind – but I can see where some people would disagree and I think it makes for an interesting discussion.
While there probably won’t be a draft here in Canada in the foreseeable future (or ever), I would become a draft-dodger if there were one.
Withholding student aid to those who haven’t signed up strikes me as blackmail. Since blackmail isn’t altogether ethical, I fail to see why you should be held to any ethics in this situation.
It’s me. Actually, we have to sign up to even goto college, in a futher round-about “blackmailing”. I’m pretty sure most coleges require you to fill out a FASFA in order to be admitted and matriculate. In that case, not only can you not get aid without signing up, you can’t even get in the door.
Unless the law has changed since the sixties, registration was compulsory. I have my draft card up in the attic and I am sure that it lists penalties for not registering. This was of great interest to me as it was my classification as 1-A together with a lottery number of 96 (taking to 125 that year) that made me decide to resume British residence in 1970 rather than take an extended vacation in South East Asia. If failure to register had just resulted in loss of government aid for college, many of the poor and ill educated who made up the majority of those drafted (the rich and the clever tended to avoid the draft or find non-combattant roles) would have foregone a college education willingly!
Oh, and it wasn’t just the draft- that was the last straw after MLK and RFK were gunned down along with my hope for the future. Since then I have lived a different life in Britain.
Consider yourself corrected. You are required by law to register with the Selective Service upon turning 18.
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If you are truly opposed to the draft, then register and stand on your principles as a concientious objector. Otherwise, get in there and deal with it the way millions of other men were required to do. I’m not terribly thrilled with the draft, except as a way to organize the call up of people who would have enlisted in any case, as happened during World War II.
Lest you think that not getting your government loan is the worst of your problems for failing to sign up:
But let’s also bear in mind that the Selective Service is not registering for the Draft. There isn’t one. And it would take an act of Congress to reinstate the draft.
I thought I’d answer for folks that don’t have a lot of sympathy for your position. I served six years active duty in the military. I was not obligated to any reserve time after that yet I still had to register with selective service to get student aid.
A $250,000 fine and five years in jail sounds pretty damn mandatory to me. Even though it goes completely unenforced now, I would imagine that it would be enforced in the event of a draft. I had been going on the assumption that there was a moral ambiguity because signing up for the draft was essentially voluntary; since it is, in fact, compulsory, even the least trepidation has been removed from my draft dodging intent. Fabulous.
Still, do you think it would be ethical to dodge a voluntary draft? Was I wrong for intending to do so? Or, even more basic, am I inherently obligated to do military service if my country demands?
Hi Keenan. Welcome to the boards, as they say.
Ankh, didn’t see your post until it was too late. My only real objection to what you said:
Ahh, but “conscientious objector” does not mean “okay, you can go home now; sorry for bothering you.” From what I hear, most COs are simply assigned to non-combat military roles. I don’t believe that the state has the right to force me into the military in any capacity. For those able to get out of military service altogether, there is still “alternate service.”
I’ve got nothing against health care or caring for old people, and this is considerably less egregious than being forced into a combat unit. Still, I object to being coerced into helping a war effort. To use Marxist terminology, this would represent the forced appropriation of and dominance over my labor by the state. That fits my definition of slavery (something to which I am mildly opposed).
Well it’s registering for the next draft. I admit that it’s unlikely to come up in the forseable future (and very unlikely to come up before I get too old to be drafted), but this is mainly a theoretical question.
Generally speaking, I’d say no, you aren’t, as I mentioned in my first post, I’m not thrilled with the idea of the draft. Although the Supreme Court has struck down every attempt to equate it with involuntary servitude, it still smacks of it in my mind, but that’s a personal opinion, certainly not one I would have attempted to stand upon if the draft had actually ended up selecting me.
However, in this case you are not only accepting but actively pursuing the government funding that is required to advance your scholastic career. Personally, think this does make you obligated to the state, if only because the requirements are spelled out prior to you receiving the money. If you were truly standing upon your principles of moral opposition to the draft and the Selective Service, I’d find it much more convincing if you chose not to take the money and found other means of financing your college education. By saying that you’re morally opposed to registering with the Selective Service, but you’re going to take the money anways and then abscond to Canada, you do not place the strength of your moral beliefs in the greatest light.
It’s true that it looks shady, especially when you phrase it as you did. I, however, would describe my actions as such: “To refuse the student aid would be to implicitly legitimize the notion that the aid can and should be tied to selective service – ‘you can’t bribe me into signing up for your immoral draft!’ I, however, deny the legitimacy of the connection to selective service. Therefore, my attaining a college education at the state’s expense and my subsequent flight to Canada are acts of civil disobedience in the face of, to put it mildly, bad government.”
Of course, if you think I’m just rationalizing, the above will sound even worse than what you said.
Creative, ingenious and all around entertaining bullshit, but bullshit nonetheless.
Civil disobedience is not carried out in the dead of night by perpetrating a secret fraud on “bad government” or anyone else. Civil disobedience is done in the light of day in an attempt to convince others that the cause is right. If you stood on the steps of the courthouse and burned your draft card, then you’d have a basis for your idea. Civil disobedience is standing up for what you believe and taking the hit that is coming because you know you’re right. Civil disobedience, whether or not I agree with their aims, needs to try to live up to the examples of Martin Luther King Jr. and Ghandi to be legitimate, not Homer Simpson’s “Marge, I swear, I never meant for you to find out!”
This is all theoretical, the chances of you being called up by the draft are slim to none. But your claims of civil disobedience are at odds with your proposed conduct. It doesn’t seem as if you want to protest the immoral conduct of the government or shine the spotlight of reform on their policies. You want to quietly and anonymously make it through your period of ‘vulnerability’ without anyone the wiser.
The least you could do is admit to yourself that you are considering stealing.
If you take the aid, knowing full well that you will slink away in the dead of night if called to uphold your end of the bargin, then you are a thief.
People like you really piss me off. You think you have some right to enjoy all the benefits of a country, enjoy the peace and security and never have to contribute if it either inconviences you or makes you feel uncomfortable.
What the hell do you think every single soldier felt as they faced gunfire? Do you think the pilots and sailors at Midway were HAPPY? How about storming the beaches at Normandy? Was spending the winter in Korea a friggin vacation? Do you think the thousands of men shipped of to Vietnam were concerned about getting a tan? When mothers and fathers had to leave their children and go to Kuwait, were they happy to get some time away?
WTF is wrong with people?
NOBODY wants to go to war. If you have some moral ethical objection to war, then stand up and declare it loudly. Petition your representatives. Start a movement.
But don’t claim some moral highground that justifies underhanded theft.
Oh, please, people. VarlosZ – go on, take the money, and run. If you ever did get drafted, don’t fight. Don’t help. If they decide to handcuff you, throw you in the back of a C-130 and parachute you into a combat zone, let it be on their heads.
I wouldn’t call being afraid to be shot exactly the prefered consciencious objector stance – you are supposed to be against killing people.
Do you really think not filling out this form is going to matter?
To quote Philip Dick’s short story “The Exit Door Leads In”:
Back when I was 17, it came time to register. I was/is morally opposed to the draft or registration - not serving in the military, mind you; just the draft, on the grounds that it was involuntary servitude. (BTW, I did not apply for nor receive student aid.)
I got my registration form, filled it out, but didn’t sign it. I mailed it in with a note explaining that I filled out the form to acknowledge that I had received it, but that I refused to sign the form because I was opposed. (Hey, I was 17 - it made sense at the time. ;))
A few months later, I was informed that I had been registered with Selective Service. They’d processed the form anyway. I thought of complaining, but decided that getting away with one stand against tyranny was enough.
I have a few things to learn about civil disobedience.
I’m not a big fan of being pressed into military service, HOWEVER, if I was drafted, I would go. Provided of course, I was not morally opposed to the war.
The way I see it, you expect to reap the benefits of being an American, without giving anything in return. The government has no obligation to pay for you to go to school. Especially if you would be unwilling to help protect American interests if asked.
Quite frankly, this whole attitude of “I’m not patriotic, but what can the government do for me?” disgusts me. It shows how spoiled and selfish many Americans have become.
I would hate to think that defending your country would interupt your lifestyle of sitting on your ass watching TV and playing PlayStation 2 all day.
It can be. Perhaps we have different notions of what civil disobedience is. I consider it to be the utter disregard for unjust laws. Just because one doesn’t get caught does not mean one cannot be engaged in a protest.
I want to do both, though making it without “anyone the wiser” is pretty unimportant as compared to not being drafted or jailed. I don’t care if they know.
Look, I don’t acknowledge that the state has the right to coerce people (even in our hypothetical situation where no jail is involved) through disengenuous means into registering for the draft, so I have no problem deceiving them by sending in my registration. I don’t think that the state has the right to draft me, so I will see to it that that doesn’t happen. I don’t think that the state has the right to jail me for refusal to serve, so I will see to it that that doesn’t happen.
spooje:
Please inform me of what my career plans are; I’d really like to know (and so would my parents).
Anyway, this is poorly worded (from my point of view). My moral objections (see above) are one thing. My pragmatic objections are another. Both are valid, I think. As you can probably imagine, I don’t agree that the “requirements of defending my way of life” can legitimately include forced military service which, as I said, I equate to slavery.
Freedom:
Freely admitted. As I’ve said before on these boards, I do not believe stealing to be inherently wrong; in this case I am not troubled by it.
I suppose, but the “bargain” is not legitimate. If this were a contract between two private actors I would have a problem with renegging. Government action in a participitory democracy is held to a different standard because, among other reasons, it has the power of absolute coersion (sp?) behind it. There is no haggling over the specifics of this kind of contract, nor are there threats to walk out and seek a better deal. When one party can unilaterally decide and enforce the terms of a contract, said terms had best be just.
I apologise for troubling you.
As far as I’m concerned, the fact that I pay taxes and submit to all laws that I find to have a legitimate basis does constitute a contibution (and one which does inconvenience me). Forced military service is a great deal more than an “inconvenience.”
And yes, I do think that I “have some right. . .” Equal protection under the law. I do not believe that the U.S. government, by its own rules, mind you, can legitimately restrict benefits to the patriotic. I’m fairly certian that your reading of the applicability 14th Amendment in this case will differ from mine. That’s alright, it’s a complicated issue with more than enough room for disagreement between reasonable people. I’m just letting you know where I’m coming from.
In order: Fear. No. Sounds frightening. Hardly. I would imagine not. Exceedingly rarely, if ever.
Everyone in the situations you describe above either wanted to be there (in the abstract, i.e. decided to take that risk), had no large objection to being coerced into military service, or did have an objection but felt an obligation to potentially give their lives for their country. Good for them. They have a code and they’re living it. I would do nothing to stop them from fulfilling what they felt to be a moral obligation in this case. I would kindly ask that they do the same for me.
So a moral stand is only valid when it is loud? And what if I agree to do all this from Canada, where I will not face imprisonment? In fact, my protests would be much more effective in that case as it would be harder to silence me. Is martyrdom really a necessary component of political protest?
I am claiming the “moral high ground,” as you say, because I believe it to be right. That it also justifies my theft is a consequence, not a cause, of said moral claim . . .
. . . I think. It is entirely possible that I am completely blinded by my utter cowardice. It’s happened before, but I don’t think this is the case here.
Good point. For what it’s worth, in the list in the second paragraph of the OP, I genuinely forgot add “(5) morally opposed to killing people when I can avoid it (as by dodging the draft, for example).”
I like the Dick quote, too.
msmith:
I am morally opposed to the draft and therefore to any war which imposes a draft, so your statement works for me.
See previous post. I do not believe that the Amercian government can legitimately ask for forced military service “in return,” nor do I believe that the state is entirely responsible for the “benefits of being an American.”
Just to define our terms, when I say that I am not patriotic I mean that I feel no inherent obligation to the state or to the country so great that military service is required; I am not especially proud of my country or its achievements (which is not necessarily to say that I dislike my country); most importantly, I feel no obligation to look after American interests more than I would the interests of any other nation or people.
It’s not as simple as asking what the governemnt can do for me. We have certain obligations to the state, and we receive in return certain benefits (or vice versa, if you prefer). For better or worse, our society has decided that one of those benefits is student aid for those who need it. As I’ve stated (and I apologise for repeating myself so often), I do not believe that the government can obligate us to serve in the military at its whim in exchange for said aid, nor do I believe that it can effectively exclude from such aid all those who are ethically or politically opposed to military service (again, see Equal Protection Under the Law).
As would I. More basically, however, I would hate to think that the state has the right to enslave me.
I would never think that “spoiled and selfish” would have the connotation that one doesn’t want to kill people or be forced into service where one aids the killing of other people. I always knew “selfish” was supposed to be negative, but sheesh.
Also, has it occurred to you that, possibly, if a PS2 is competition for fighting injustice, then maybe we shouldn’t be fighting that war in the first place? In a democracy, if we go to war we shouldn’t need a draft to do it if the support was there in the first place, right?
I’d hate to have your sense of moral decency result in forced murder.
Well, when one sets up the workings of a welfare state as the backbone of daily living then, perhaps, that’s what we can expect to see more of. After all, don’t we deserve to live free?
You rule.