The ethics of suicide

Great Debates
41

One of my best friends committed suicide back about six years (!) ago.

Now, I don’t lose my shit in public. When I found out about it, I was in Bed, Bath and Beyond. My mom called me on my then-husband’s cell phone–mine was never on–and told me what had happened. I was 21, and I broke down, crouched on the floor, crying. I had to be guided out. The immediate impact of that grief was massive. It hurt.

The day before I found out–the day that he died–I had lunch with my mom. She asked about him. I said we hadn’t talked in a while. I went and gamed with another group of friends, with the idea that I should give him a call soon. See what was up. I think I’ll always feel guilty that I didn’t right that moment. I’ll probably always think that, on some level, I’m culpable for his death.

I would not wish either of those things unto my worst enemy. I would not want to go through that again. I have friends who are depressed, and my biggest, most selfish fear is that they might decide to end their own lives. I’m not strong, and I count very few as friends. That would break me.

So, yes, I think that suicide is, in general, even absent of religious belief or other obligations, unethical. Surely there are exceptions–for instance, those who are mortally physically ill and in excessive pain–but, in general, I think it’s deeply unethical. It can destroy others.

42

Trisk, you clearly have issues and are projecting. Don’t assume other.people were like you.

43

Considering that most suicide attempts fail, and even methods such as firearms fail much more often than one might expect (10 percent or so according to Wikipedia) There are, in fact, many possible negatives to attempting suicide, deformity, brain damage, etc, even from an atheist perspective. Perhaps there is not if the attempt succeeds, but ethics often concerns itself with others even if there is no direct benefit to the individual.

As to ethics regarding things you will not be around to contemplate blowing oneself up in a crowd of people is something most people would not call ethical, even though the bomber will no longer be around to contemplate it. Although the scale is very different, there are still ethical concerns regarding the emotional pain that someone inflicts when they commit suicide. Of course severe depression and other mental illnesses have a negative impact on ones ability to see outside of one’s self, with of course affects ethics. I personally relate to this as someone whose sister committed suicide and who has attempted it myself multiple times.

I’ve already said I had amazing experiences with medication ( after I was eventually diagnosed as bipolar) I encourage anyone fixated on suicide to seriously look into all other options.

44

I’ve avoided meds because in my case, I don’t think I am depressed. I’m in a state of despair over my life, but I don’t feel like it’s irrational: I think anyone would feel the same way I do if they had had my experiences and situation.

(not to imply people who are depressed are irrational, but you know what I mean: depression can cause or be caused by chemical changes in the brain, and depressed people tend not to look at good and bad events in a balanced way).

Aw, shucks :cool:

Yes I still have that nagging doubt of whether I’ve considered absolutely every aspect. After all, I’ll have zero chance for reflection after the event.

In fact it’s pretty much the only thing that gives me pause.

45

Are you imagining, or do you have some basis for saying this?

I have certainly observed people who have given up the will to live, and who didn’t, or wouldn’t, react the way you describe. I have heard of cases where would-be suicides actively fought against would-be rescuers.

46

I understand the inclination. But it’s unimaginative, and kind of wasteful. I’ve had some pretty low moments in my life, but whenever I’ve thought about suicide, well, there’s always a better option. There’s probably a million things that I’m either 1) too lazy or 2) too afraid to do. If I ever got to the point where my life was so not worth living that I would seriously consider suicide, I’d have to at least do those things first. After all, if I’m going to die anyway, at this point what do I have to lose? I’d take slightly bigger risks until the risk either gave me a huge reward or gave me a back a passion for life, or else killed me. Or as an alternative to taking big risks, if my own life doesn’t give me meaning, why not help others give meaning to their lives? Volunteer or work for a non profit. Or better yet, participate in a research or charity project to battle whatever your issues are. It’s amazing how much relief can come when you make some small action towards working on a problem, even if there’s no complete solution in sight.

Also, to get a little Buddhist, I find that a lot of the bad feelings I have, the worst things to do are to either act on them or to resist them. Most of the emotional pain comes from resisting the feeling itself. And most of the physical damage comes from acting on it. The best thing to do is completely accept the feeling, but not act on it.

47

If the statement concerning getting all of one’s affairs in order and cutting all contact with others is true, this person is teetering on the brink or at least that is my understanding and that understanding was acquired through counseling following the suicide of my favorite uncle. I would urge Mijiin to seek professional help ASAP.

48

This thread is getting sad, for sure. For the OP, if you have no living obligations to others and want to go for either physical or emotional reasons, I feel that it’s your body, your life, your decision. However, I consider suicide a cop-out.

As others have typed, there are ways around this kind of ending. One down side of suicide is, it’s easy and therapy certainly is not-- it’s work. I think that everyone has courage someplace inside them. It’s not a bad idea to go searching for it even if it is a lot of work.

My own experiences, a friend from high school had a mom with a debilitating physical disease (forget which tho). She stopped taking her medication in secret to spare her family and husband the insurmountable medical costs for her, knowing that she might go soon and the debt would be years long. That may be considered noble on her part, but don’t ask her family what they think about it. If she was by herself and had no friends or relatives as the OP suggests, why not keep going? You can’t bill a dead guy/girl.

Another is a friend who lost a son only a few years ago. Sudden aneurysm. He was 14. My friend has another son. He’s healthy and a great kid. He claims his living son is the main reason he didn’t kill himself, even though his parents and friends love him. He may feel differently now, but if his luck doesn’t change and his history repeats itself, I worry. I don’t have any kids, and if I went through that, I wouldn’t know how to feel at all.

Also, to the posters who have considered suicide and still are considering this, stop it, please. If you have been searching for a way to go on, keep up the search. If you haven’t found the right medication, tell the doctors.

Look at it this way-- if you go, if by your own hand, even if you have no friends or relatives, even if I don’t like you, I will miss you and so will others on this forum. Start there. :slight_smile:

49

I can’t of course say anything about you and your situation. However, generically speaking, this is exactly the sort of thing I’d expect most genuinely depressed people to say, and believe. Depression is irrational, and as such, comes with a lack of ability to rationally assess one’s situation – and consequently, a lack of ability to assess one’s rationality: you never notice yourself being irrational, as the ability to do so would presuppose rationality. (Think about how dreams always make perfect sense while you’re dreaming…)

So, medication – and the possibility that after all, you are depressed – is something you might not have (probably can not have) fully considered. I’m not one to preach and to use phrases like ‘you owe it to yourself’, but isn’t it at least worth a shot? If it doesn’t work, it doesn’t work, nothing lost. But if it does, there’s a lot – everything, one might say – to be won; so if there’s at least a microscopic chance, the expected payoff sees you in the plus.

Of course, whether there is a chance or not, and whether you take that chance or not, is yours to consider. But perhaps it’s not a waste of time to think a moment about whether or not you can be absolutely sure that you can trust your own judgement.

50

Half Man Half Wit, thank you for your thoughts. You have put my feelings into words much better than I could.

I am now 41, and have been seriously depressed my whole life. Yes, even before I started school I remember being very very sad all the time. I begged for help at the age of 15, when I was first aware of wanting to die and I was chastised for being selfish and then ignored.

I’ve been in therapy several times, but have had horrible luck with therapists (they move away!), so have never been in therapy for longer than a year. But I have gone back again and again because I know that my mental health is my responsibility, and I think I’ve been pretty brave and mature, considering. I’ve taken upwards of ten different anti-depressants since the age of 21 (when I was again seriously suicidal after white knucking it for six years and first went for help). I challenge anyone to say I have not done my part to try to get better. Thankfully, a year ago science finally caught up with me, and I was re-diagnosed as having bipolar spectrum disorder and not depression. This has meant a medication change to a mood stabilizer instead of an SSRI, and for the first time since I became aware I don’t feel sad every day. I’ve also been lucky to find a good therapist and who I will be able to see for as long as it takes. I swear to God, if she moves to Timbuktu or even Mississippi, I’m going with her. This may indeed finally lift me from many many years of despair.

But. I lived my life every day as a severely depressed person for more than thirty-five years. Thirty-five. At what point is it enough? I reject anyone who calls me selfish for wanting to end my life. Quite the opposite. I’ve kept going primarily so that others would NOT have to suffer (and not just loved ones). I actually have faith that my life is going to be different, finally. But emotional pain is real. And I find myself pretty angry at those who make it clear that my pain is irrelevant, that I’m selfish and an “attention whore” for God, please, wanting it to stop, just finally stop. Are you kidding me? I’ve lived this every day for decades. I am strong, I have done the work. I have taken responsibility. But there is a limit. Also, what would it do to my loved ones to know I lived a horrible life, all for them? All to spare them? That’s a pretty heavy responsibility to lay on them, don’t you think?

51

Carol, you did not kill yourself. You seem to me to be courageous, and dedicated to finding the way out of this life long nightmare. That’s not mean, not selfish. It’s freakin’ heroic! It’s an example of exactly why suicide is always the wrong choice. Yes, it hurts like hell itself. No, it never feels like it’s almost over. I don’t belittle the pain you feel, nor discount it. I know that emotional pain is real pain.

I hope your new medication, and your new therapist can lead you back to where you can see the path. I lucked out, and only had to try four therapists before I got one who helped me. Drugs only stopped me when I was on a crash course, and mostly that was because they knocked me out entirely. It took cops, and hospitals, and regimented committment to get me out of the hole I dug.

By the way, before you answer that you are not a hero, take my word for it, yes you are. Heros are not folks who never fall down. Heros are folks who keep getting back up. Be a hero, for yourself. That’s not selfish, because in the end you are the only one who can do it. But you gotta let someone help you.

Tris

52

Thank you for your kind words. I don’t agree, however, that suicide is always the wrong choice. I simply don’t. If I don’t wanna get back up some day, then I should get to decide that. And in the face of unrelenting pain, it is perfectly reasonable and logical to end it. I will die someday regardless. It is the ultimate expression of my personal rights as a human being, IMO, to decide when end my life. Otherwise, my life really isn’t mine. Frankly, I wish we had a system wherein I could decide to end my life (for any reason or no reason at all) and have professionals there to assist me and to process my dead body according to my wishes. I think that would be a whole lot more humane than guns or hanging or overdoses or any other method that is not guaranteed, painful, traumatic for those that find you, and messy.

53

Thank you Half Man Half Wit and LouisB for your concern. I have decided that I will make an appointment with my therapist. I don’t think I will ever get anything out of life, but it would be a lie to say I’m completely sure what the right thing to do is.

Seconded.
And I do not see enduring suffering as particularly heroic in itself.

I think what Triskadecamus is hinting towards is having some sort of personal pride over having the strength to endure these problems. It sounds like you have this pride, Carol.

But that’s just it: what do you do when you don’t feel that way any more? When all you feel is shame? The answer is nothing: there’s nothing to be done once you’ve lost that internal battle.

54

They will cease to exist as well. Everything is irrelevant.

I’m probably a solipsist, someone who doesn’t believe in…

A person should not believe in an ism - he should believe in himself.

  • Ferris Bueller

I regret that I have only one suicide to commit for my country.

  • Nathan Hale
55

For me (and Carol as well, from her post) the problem with that argument is that we have had the experience of feeling that way for literally decades- indeed since elementary school, and yet finally come out the other side. I applaud your decision to go see your therapist, and hope you have a good relationship with him or her. I too have had the experience of loosing a therapist (one of my therapist died of a heart attack) and I hope you have one that you trust and believe to be competent.

56

Though I feel suicide is always sad, and quite often the “wrong” choice in various ways–still, I am compelled to precisely agree with this. In any ultimate sense, the ownership of one’s own body and life must include this right.

57

It can also be selfless.

My grandmother killed herself. Like people here she had an decades long struggle with depression. The medical costs to treat this (she died in 1968) were staggering to a working class family. There was a LOT of stress in the family from her illness. And she saw her own death as a way to release her family from their obligations to her - obligations that were making it impossible for her kids to live “normal” lives.

Was suicide the right answer? Probably not. But she did not do it for selfish reasons. She did it because she felt it was her only path to her kids living fairly normal lives.

58

I would say that I got lucky, to be honest. True, I was approaching but had not yet reached my limit, obviously, because I tried again. I stumbled upon a good psychiatrist who recognized my bipolar spectrum disorder and switched my meds. That made the biggest difference, and has made it possible to do better work in therapy. I mean, it was chance that I found her and my therapist. And I will tell you, I don’t think I could have done another couple of decades depressed. I may be lucky and come out on the other side, but if you don’t think it’s ever going to happen for you, well… I would not condemn you.

59

Inherently evil? No. Often shortsighted, selfish, cowardly, cruel… yes. Sometimes completely understandable and valid, too. Each is different. There are as many reasons for committing suicides as there are suicides.

60

I have had close relationships with two people who committed suicide. Both were middle-aged me who battled severe addictions to both drugs and gambling. Both were badly damaged people from childhood on. I loved them both and I watched them both try very hard to change and get help and forge a life for themselves. And I watched them both fail.

I am very sad that they killed themselves, I wish they had found a way out of their pain. But I recognize that their pain was, for them, no different than the pain of someone suffering a chronic illness that sucks all the joy out of living. They were sick. They wanted to stop hurting. They tried.

The only thing I think it’s valid to expect of people you love who are suffering is that they don’t make the decision to kill themselves until after they have made serious, committed efforts to find other ways of ending their suffering. It IS selfish and cruel to bail without trying. But it’s selfish and cruel to expect someone who is wracked with psychological pain to live with it for decades, too.