The ex-slacker superhero just flat-out murdered a dude. Do you prosecute?

Ridiculous and longish fantasy hypothetical, possibly a poll but I won’t decide till the last second, obligatory bigoted slur of Pompeiians, blah blah blah.

Today’s story is set in the world of Box X, the black bisexual superhero with Kryptonian powers, no known weaknesses, and a kid in college. But it’s not Bob’s actions you’re being asked to decide; for purposes of this thread you are the state’s attorney of Cook County, IL, where Bob hangs his cape. Well, he doesn’t wear a cap. Where Bob hangs his Bulls jersey. Wait, do basketball players wear jerseys? Ah, screw it. Anyway, here are the facts, which are not in dispute:

Recently, while putting down a Tyrannosaurus Rex rampage at his world’s version of Jurassic Park, Bob got the phone call all parents dread, but superhero parents more than most: his adoptive daughter Lynn had been kidnapped. Oddly, the kidnappers made no attempt to conceal their location; in fact they told him exactly where they (but not his kid) could be found, saying that he had half an hour to get there before they chopped Lynn into pieces. Bob had been trying to capture rather than kill the T-Rexes, but at that news he said, “Fuck this shit,” vaporized the lot of them with his heat vision, and sped across Pacific Ocean to Chicago in about five minutes.

Bob’s destination was a high-rise office owned by one Jimmy Falcon, youngest son of the most powerful drug lord in the Windy City. Jimmy’s recently taken over the Falcon family business because his father and older brothers were convicted of felonies and jailed. Bob had nothing to do with that, incidentally. He spends his time fighting drought, famine, hurricanes, and occasionally monsters, only fighting crimes if they happen to be committed right in front of him.

Arriving at Jimmy’s office, Bob found the youngest Falcon and a dozen of his henchmen waiting for him. But what drew is attention was the plasma TV on the wall, on which was playing an apparently live video playing of his beautiful daughter: bound, gagged, bruised and crying; behind her was a man pointing a gun at her head. It took all his willpower to remain calm.

“Nice setup, ain’t it?” Jimmy said. “Don’t bother x-raying the building; your brat ain’t here. She ain’t even in the city. That image is being bounced through a dozen satellites. And it’s a two-way link. Not even you can trace it back before my man Vinnie there ventilates your kid.”

“Sweetie, nod twice if you can hear me,” Bob said to the TV. Lynn obeyed and immediately stopped crying. “Have you out in a second,” Bob said.

“No you won’t,” Jimmy said. “Not unless you do what I tell you too. You’re gonna start by busting my dad and brothers out of jail. Then you’re gonna retrieve all the coke the feds confiscated from us. Then I’ll think about letting your brat live. Try anything smart and she dies.”

“I don’t think you’ve thought this through,” Bob replied, “so I’m going to be absurdly nice and give you a chance you don’t deserve. None of your guys are gonna obey your orders if you’re dead, and dead is exactly what you’ll be unless you order that chump to let my daughter go.”

“I don’t think so,” Jimmy said. “See, I’ve studied you. You don’t like killing people. You go out of your way not to. I even know why; it’s 'cause you’re queer, and queers got no iron. That’s why I didn’t order you to kill the feds that have been fucking with my family. But super or not, I got you. You’re my bitch now. And unless you get your ass over to the Colorado Supermax, I’m gonna tell Vinnie there to make your kid HIS bitch before–”

Those were Jimmy’s last words, of course, as Bob then did to him what he’d earlier done to the T-Rexes, albeit more slowly. As predicted, Vinnie and Jimmy’s other henchmen lost all interest in obeying him at that point. They told Bob where to find Lynn. Three minutes later Bob was in the Kiev rathole where Lynn was being kept. He broke two of Vinnie’s bones for every bruise she had suffered, then sped her to the nearest hospital. While she was being treated he flew back to Chicago, tracked down the henchmen, and delivered them to the police, though only after repeating the bruise-fracture transaction on each.

You might think the story would end there, but you’d be wrong. You see, there’s some hardasses in the State’s Attorney office. Some of them advise the DA (i.e., the hypothetical “you”) that Bob needs to be prosecuted for murder. He didn’t *have *to kill the guy, after all. At no point was he himself in danger from Falcon & company, for one thing. For another, with his powers and resources, surely he could have found a way to rescue Lynn without killing or brutalizing anyone as he did. Why not play along with the jailbreak, biding his time until he could locate Lynn? some of the prosecutors say. One adds that Lynn isn’t even his real daughter–merely adopted.

Not everyone agrees. For one thing, Bob can only be prosecuted (let alone jailed) if he lets himself be treated that way, which seems unlikely. For another, the world clearly needs him, what with all the kaiju and so forth. And even ignoring (a) and (b) it’s not likely they’ll be able to convict him, particularly if there’s any mothers or fathers in the jury.

You’re the State’s Attorney. What do you decide?

I thought you already did this scenario. Which raises another question. Do you keep track?

I don’t think I’ve done this before. Closest I can think of is whether Bob should stomp terrorists or let a colony of pacifists get killed.

ETA: Searching for Bob X through the Board won’t work because the search terms are too brief, but I just did a Google Search and did not see this scenario.

There are many reasons why I would not prosecute him for murder, ranging from temporary insanity/outside context problems at one end, through defense of another, all the way to “some folks need killin’”.

Somebody threatening to rape your child is not a provocation that we can reasonably ask somebody to prepare themselves to face with a rational mind. Even if that was not true, he killed Jimmy because he was threatening somebody, making the use of deadly force justified. And even if that was not true, I’m not going to shed any tears over the death of a would-be child rapist-by-proxy.

I don’t see where you get temporary insanity from. Bob seems pretty calm throughout. Massively pissed, but calm.

So I’ve read all the way through.

  1. How the hell are they going to prosecute him? Is Bob going to let them?
  2. Sure, some people need killing. Are we going to let Bob decide? He’s not even human; who said he could judge us?
  3. What’s to stop him from doing it again? and again? and again?
  4. This is more or less the plot of Man of Steel? Both guys needed killing, and now we have a big fat problem.
  5. He tortured each of those goons (broke multiple bones). Again, it sounds like they deserved it, but I don’t really consider that a moral person. Maybe he’s not trying to be, superheroes aren’t always.
  6. He tortured the guy, too (burning him up slowly).

I don’t know if I would prosecute him so much as bring him tribute. That’s pretty much getting on the way to supervillain.

This is how the comic book series Irredeemable pretty much started (except the hero had a tragic life history and problems that contributed a lot).

One of the defenses against murder is preventing harm to a third party. You see a guy holding a gun on another guy, you’re allowed to blow away the gun-wielder. This only backs up the causality chain by one person, which I don’t think should make a difference (although I would be unsurprised if a lawyer disagreed). So what Bob X did was legal, and therefore should not be prosecuted even if the objections over ability to try and hold Bob X could be overcome.

Of course, Vinny also committed suicide-by-superhero, and in a remarkably stupid way too.

Separate post because it’s a separate idea.

Even if Bob X’s actions weren’t legal, and he agreed to be tried and confined (perhaps he wants his kids to accept the rule of law and that means owning your misdeed), I imagine he could still be used to combat the kaiju in a manner a la The Dirty Dozen (or, indeed, the Suicide Squad, which covers pretty much this exact scenario). So an objection on society’s need for Bob X’s protection falls flat.

Damn, I hit the wrong one, #3. I meant to hit the first option.

Absolutely, charges need to be brought:

Regarding Jimmy Falcon: I wouldn’t charge this as murder - I know there are statutes that allow you make it a lesser crime when there’s sufficient provocation such that you can show no premeditation. Manslaughter maybe? I’m not so bothered by the speed at which he was disintegrated, unless we’re talking about long enough to constitute torture. In which case, we clearly have murder.

Regarding Vinnie: Clearly not murder, but no question that this is illegal behavior and inappropriate from anyone, superhero or not. Not only was it unnecessary to preserve his daughter’s life, Bob actually delayed getting her medical help while he broke Vinnie’s bones.

Given all of Bob’s wonderful service to humanity, I might just be prepared to do this:

  1. Get Bob to cop a plea on Falcon. Counseling, community service, probation maybe.
  2. Find a technicality that makes the crime against Vinnie not my problem. The crime was committed in Kiev, after all.

#2 is a practical approach, not a moral position. If I had the standing to prosecute him for Vinnie, I would feel obligated to do so. And I would do my part in any extradition proceedings that the Russians might ask for.

It’s not in the OP so you don’t have to take my word as gospel, but I’d say Bob roasted Jimmy alive to make a point. Because Jimmy was right; Bob couldn’t have crossed the Atlantic and half of Europe faster than a bullet could cross two inches. He had to make sure Vinnie was too fricking terrified to do anything, and to make sure Vinnie took the time to think, “This is not Clark Kent I’m fucking with. It ain’t even Bruce Wayne.”

I doubt the delay in getting Lynn medical help mattered much. She was only bruised, after all. Bob gave her the once-over with his supersenses, after all, and if she’d been seriously wounded or raped, Vinnie would have been tossed into orbit.

We don’t know how whether Bob is human or not. *He *doen’t know; he just woke up super-powered one day. Now, given that he’s the creation of my brow, it’s entirely reasonable to suppose that he’s the only son of Athena, as unbegotten as She Herself, but that’s not been established.

As for doing it again: well, the OP says that Bob doesn’t fight crime on any sort of regular basis. He’ll stop a bank robbery or a mugging if one happens in front of him, but he’s more a super-powered relief worker than a vigilante. Anyway, the spectacular way he put Jimmy & Company down will likely discourage every other criminal on the planet from even considering touching her again. Which was likely the point.

Vinnie should have spent less time reading comic books and more time studying Bob’s actual history. His plan might have worked if he was dealing with Superman and Lois.
Maybe even Thor and Jane.

I don’t think so. Plutonian just got pissed because people didn’t appreciate him. Bob was saving his kid.

And Bob doesn’t seem to be a psycho to me. As Jimmy observes, he generally goes out of his way not to kill bad guys; he was even trying not to kill the escaped dinosaurs until the need for haste forced his hand. (He could have massacred them all from the get-go, after all, but he didn’t; likewise he could have raced to Lynn’s rescue without troubling to end the rampage, but he didn’t do that either.)

Gee, all he has to do is lie and say that he was wrong to kill the man who was threatening to rape and murder his daughter, and you’ll only treat him like a criminal. You’re too kind.

If no bailiff or police force can enforce a judge’s order against the defendant, what can they do? We can’t hold a trial in absentia, can we?

That is, the superhero declares “I’m not going to appear in court to answer to this false and time wasting charge”. Judge signs a warrant for the superhero’s arrest for murder.

The local cops take a look at that warrant. So, they either
a. Go to the super heroes house and ask him to come with them. He says no. They try to put on the cuffs. They are unable to do so much as budge a pinky. Superhero asks the cops to please leave. Cops refuse. They are sent on a ballistic trajectory off of his property. Unless the government has an anti-superhero gun, that’s the end of it.
b. Refuse to attempt to serve the warrant, on account of (a)

Maybe a cop pulls him off. “sir, can I get your license and registration”. Cop goes to the cop car, comes back. “Sir, can I ask you to step out of the car?” Superhero’s hand tightens slightly, leaving a handprint in the side of the car. “ah, never mind, have a nice day…”

Bob’s defense can range from protection of a third party to “He needed killing.” In any case, no prosecution. Why waste taxpayer money when there isn’t a jury on the planet that would convict him anyway? The actions against Vinnie would have to be tried in Ukrainian courts. The rest of the henchmen “tripped while attempting to flee.”

Jimmy got what he deserved. People that stupid need to be culled before they reproduce.

It’s a damn shame I keep losing the paperwork on this one, I tell ya. Keep losing it right into the cylindrical file cabinet under my desk. Pity.

None of the poll options worked so I voted for ice cream.

I would not prosecute for murder, based on the circumstances - use of force in the defense of another works for me.

I would, however, prosecute for assault and battery for assaulting the other kidnappers - there’s no legal defense for that.

He IS a criminal. I’m just trying to find the most lenient way to deal with him being a criminal because there are some extenuating circumstances. Seems fair to me.

Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe there’s some statute that says “If someone threatens to murder and rape your daughter, you can kill him in daughter-defense. And after she’s safe, you can also break the bones of his accomplices.” If so, I’ll be happy to pull that out and give Box the benefit of the doubt.

And if he’d only killed Jimmy Falcon, then I’d also be a lot more lenient, but Bob crossed all kinds of lines by assaulting Vinny. That’s not self defense. It’s not even defense of your daughter at that point. It’s, at best, vigilantism.

This is a clear case of defence of self & family. He even gave Jimmy a warning, Two warnings, in fact if Jimmy had been following the T-Rex story.

I agree with Quartz, silenus, and WhyNot. Bob was clearly in the right to defend himself and his family. Jimmy invited Bob to the party, knew exactly who he was dealing with, and if his dastardly plan went awry and he ended up as charcoal, well, tough cookies. He got what he deserved and the world is a better place without him. Vinnie and Jimmy’s other co-horts obviously needed clarification about what happens to you when you associate with the wrong crowd. Clearly, the “there are consequences to anti-social behavior” was a lesson they missed growing up. Yep, I’d keep on losing the file in the round filing cabinet.

What flavor is the ice cream? Did you re-stock the French Vanilla? :smiley: