The ex-slacker superhero and the hypocrisy issue.

Back to fantasy hypotheticals. If you don’t like these, go read about the Olympics or something. Today we’re back in the world of BOB X, the black, bisexual hero with Superman’s powers, no known weaknesses, and a public identity.

First the short version. Frustrated by the fact that a cabal of human traffickers have repeatedly escaped prosecution, a less-powerful super has decided to kill the lot of them. Bob could easily prevent these murders, but probably at the cost of killing the less-powerful hero. He hesitates to do that, partly because he likes hee, partly because she saved his kid’s life once, and partly because he’s been tempted to execute these fuckers himself. What should he do?

That’s the summary. You can vote based on that, or wait 60 seconds for the long version.

As our story opens, Bob X is tracking down a killer, something he rarely does, as he’s more of a kaiju rassling/meteor catching hero than a crime-fighter. But when he started seeing reports of mysterious deaths in a certain Latin American country, he felt obliged to break his pattern. He had a sinking feeling that the killer was a super-powered friend of his. Thus Bob is flying over that country’s capital city, using his super-vision to scan for a familiar energy signature. Finding it does not make him happy.

The trail takes Bob to the basement of a building in a densely-populated neighborhood. The basement would seem completely emptya norm, but Bob’s elvish eyes can tell that there’s actually an “invisible” energy field filling it, of a color he privately calls violet. Within the field, and of a slightly different hyper-violet shade, are a woman he recognizes (walking around free) and a d half dozen well-dressed men, all bound with similar energy fields. The woman makes a gesture, and hyper-violet guillotines appear around the men. Then she notices Bob.

The woman’s name is JESSICA MARA. She’s a super-powered FBI agent with the the power to turn invisible and create force fields. Bob and Jessica have worked together on several cases. On the last one, while Bob was busy fighting an army of giant shapeshifting robots, she saved his adoptive daughter from a smaller one. (They even used to be fuckbuddies; the relationship fizzled for the same reason all Bob’s romances do–the fact that she was getting older but Bob is stuck at 25.) They haven’t seen one another for a year; Bob had thought Jessica had retired.

Jessica’s shield is opague to sound, so Bob motions for her to lower it. She shakes her head. He sighs.

“What are you doing, Jessica?” Bob asks in ASL.

“Don’t ask stupid questions, Bobby,” she replies the same way.

“So I guessed right. You’ve been murdering the cartel bosses.”

“No, I’ve been putting down rabid dogs. You know why.”

And he does. The men Jessica has bound are the bosses of a crime syndicate who, in Bob & Jessica’s next-to-last case together, were abductng and selling women and children as sex slaves. Bob rescued a group of American abductees, then enlisted Jessica’s help in gathering evidence that would send the bosses to prison. She did a great job, but it ultimately didn’t matter; the bosses’ money and connections spared them from prosecution. Since then they’ve had the sense to stay out of the US, but their operation continues in their own country.

“You can’t do this, Jessica,” Bob signs. “It’s murder.”

“No, what these guys do to their slaves once they’re used up is murder,” Jessica signs back. “This is justice. And don’t give me that look. Didn’t you kill a mob boss a few years back to keep him from hurting your daughter?”

“It was the only way to save Lynn’s life. This is not the only way to stop these guys.”

“Bullshit. We’ve tried to corral these guys through the system multiple times, and it didn’t work. They own half this country and have the other half cowed. The only way to stop them is to separate their heads from their shoulders, which I will do after I rest up–unless you’re gonna be a hypocrite and stop me.”

"That’s another thing,’ Bob signs. “I thought you weren’t supposed to be doing force shields any more after te thing with the Deceptibots.”

The “thing” is the aforementioned transforming robot battle. Jessica suffered a brain injury during that fight when a robot-cum-tank blasted through her shield. Bob was with her when the doctors told her to avoid using her force shields in the future; another such incident would orobably kill her.

“Nothing’s changed,” Jessica signs. “That’s my problem. We both know my shields can’t stand up to your punches. But you don’t have to throw one, either. It’s on you whether to kill me for doing something you yourself talked about doing once–whether you want to be a hypocrite. Decide.”

Jessica is right; Bob did consider killing these guys, but ultimately decided that he hadn’t the right. And she’s also right that he can’t break through her force shield without killing her. All during this conversation he has been scanning her shield, looking for weaknesses and devising scenarios. His laser vision is visible light and so would be deflected by the light-bending properties of her shield; his other non-muscular attacks would be likewise defeated. The only way to stop the killings in time is the sort of massive super-strong, super-fast punch that will kill his friend

What should Bob do?

Kill Jessica and then cry for a while

Murderous vigilantes? And they can only be stopped by killing them?

I might temporize, and ask what it will take to get legal consent for this, so that I’m not a murderous vigilante.

Otherwise, I’d have to time things so that my action is interrupting an actual use of deadly force on their part, which legally justifies deadly force on my part. (A policeman may shoot a criminal sniper.)

Anyway, the lesser superhero is wrong, and must be stopped. We don’t get to go around killing people we don’t like, be they never so rotten. That way lies vendetta and madness.

I should have been clearer. It would be trivial for Bob to capture Jessica non-lethally. From his point of view she changes color rather than turning invisible, and nothing she can throw at him can really hurt him. Given five minutes to work with he could work something out. But in the half-second he has to work with, he can only stop her lethally,

And remember: Bib owes Jessica the largest debt conceivable.

Capital punishment is morally wrong, always and everywhere (even in situations such as this). The fact that it’s extrajudicial exacerbates the wrongness of Jessica’s plan. There’s also the fact that once they’re dead, their troubles are over.

Oddly, I don’t have quite the same absolutist position on the subject of psychological manipulation.

I’m going to try to talk Jessica into giving them the Ludovic treatment, until they decide to off themselves.

Why is “Bob” always a jerk?

A friend/former lover is ricking her life to do Justice, and he is actually thinking of killing her?

That’s about as scummy as you can get and still qualify as an “Intelligent life form”.

Bob needs to find some disabled person who wants help crossing the street…

I’m assuming that also meets my legalistic requirements: lethal force is legally justified, as this is the only way to prevent a murder.

So, yeah: I stop her lethally. Friends don’t let friends commit murder. I’ll mourn later, but, now, a human life depends on my acting.

@Skald, you wouldn’t happen to read Strong Female Protagonist, would you?

Never even heard of it. A webcomic, I assume. Send me a link.

When you bring up legalism, is it because you’re worrying about Bob facing legal action? Because he’s a nigh-invulnerable, super-strong, super-fast, flying monster fighter who shoots lasers from his eyes and can see the unseen. I expect he only cares about the lives of the innocent, his own conscience, the mortals he loves.

Probably not in that order.

So Bob should kill the woman who saved his kid’s life, to prevent her from killing people who have murdered any number of innocent children and face no punishment, because killing is wrong?

How is BOB being the jerk? (This time. He’s been a jerk in other thrads.)

Bob isn’t thinking of killing her so much as he’s trying to find a way to stop her without killing her and has come up with noting. If he wanted her dead she’d be dead, with no DAWN OF JUSTICE silliness.

http://strongfemaleprotagonist.com/

In part. I want the superhero to be a licensed and registered law-enforcement officer, with legal powers of arrest, etc.

Also, I am sensitive to the accusation of hypocrisy. If I’m going to kill someone else for killing someone else, I want it clear that the two actions are not directly comparable. If I’m just as bad as she is, what have I gained in a moral sense? The point of my answers is that I want to do the right thing whereas she is doing the wrong thing.

If I am to model my answers on my moral values and conscience, then simply being strong is not a justification. I reject “might makes right.” Yes, he, being super-powered, could trivially “get away” with doing things his own way, but that would incur society’s criticism and, most certainly, my criticism.

I don’t like bullies, even if they’re bullying other bullies.

He has been *tempted *to do, but he has not done. So why would an accusation of “hypocrisy” be some sort of trump card?

Killing her is worse than saving them. Bob’s no dummy, he does nothing.

My problem with the death penalty is not that it turns the state into a killer (I don’t particularly care) or that the crime doesn’t fit the punishment (I generally think rapists and murderers deserve death). My problem is that the state sometimes executes the wrong person, so I oppose the death penalty on those grounds.

The scumbags deserve death. Jessica and Bob are both as certain they have the right person as if they went through a trial. Why isn’t Bob helping her to pulp them?

Image problems. They cause this kind of dilemma for him in the first place. Jessica is willing to take the heat for this (and there won’t really be any), so he’ll stand by, regretting that he can’t stop her (but not really).

Are you saying that if Bob saw a non-lethal way of stopping Jessica, you’d still want him to allow hte bosses’ to be murdered? If so, should he have killed them himself when they escaped legal punishment?

That’s a whole new hypothetical. You’d have to provide the details for this new goal post location. How does he stop Jessica without killing her? What jurisdiction prevails where they are located? If I’m not mistaken you said they avoided prosecution, are you saying they were prosecuted and acquitted or given light sentences? There’s a lot of room outside of that force field bubble.

Instead of capital punishment, what if you viewed this (the killing of the traffickers) as a justifiable homicide, i.e. a necessary action to protect the general public from the future crimes they are certain to commit, given their long history of recidivism?

As I conceive the situation, what’s happened is this. Jessica erected the force field around herself and her victims before Bob arrived for the sake of privacy, but not knowing that he was on her trail, probably created a wall rather than a bubble. When she noticed Bob’s presence she created a ceiling and floor so he couldn’t approach from above or below. If Bob had acted before she had a chance to do that,he could probably have given her a relatively gentle superstrong thumb-tap to know her out and spirited her away from her victims (or they from her) before she could react.

In other words, Bob created this dilemma by trying to stop her with words rather than force.