The Fat vs Thin debate in America

I was told about this particular site by a friend. At the time it was my understanding that this was an intellectual forum.

I am finding otherwise here.

It is turning out to be a great place to make sarcastic, cutting remarks to person’s outside of your own personal beliefs. Did I mention I really like that game?

Still, I am disturbed that people seem to believe that using big words in long, complicated sentences constitutes an intellectual conversation.

Another way of putting it:
Big words no make you sound smart.

At the risk of upsetting a great number of people I’d like to state a rather silly question based solely upon the last page of posts.

What are we fighting about?

Is it “Why people are fat?” or “Whether being fat is good or not?” or “Whether or not fat people eat ho-ho’s?”

It reminds me of the SATs.

Some dogs are black. Some dogs are big. Are all brown dogs big?

Some people are fat. Some people eat ho-ho’s. Are ALL ho-ho eaters (HHE) fat?

You’ll find it ironic that I am eating a ho-ho right now. Since we are far enough off topic as it already is and so full of ourselves and our own shit to have warranted an invite to a good old-fashioned BBQ and the ever classic attempt at dissappearing via name-change (pause to finish ho-ho consumption and breathe) I’d like to put forth and interesting, albeit, boring question (ain’t that an oxymoron?).

If I eat ho-ho’s am I fat? You are guaranteed to hurt yourself thinking about it. I almost pulled out my own lushious locks of hair thinking about it. I mean, when I ran track in high school I was a lean 120 lbs. Then I stopped running and started eating ho-hos. I ballooned to 150 lbs. Am I fat?

If you are saying, “But Mr. Bandit, we don’t know how tall you are!,” then you are saying the right thing.

But I’m not telling. That’d be sharing too much personal stuff and I’d hate to have someone attack me because I was short.

Have a wonderful night cyberspace and I sure hope that we can figure this debate out soon. It’s tiring reading the same thing over and over again. Until then I can only say, eat more twinkies, they are better than ho-hos anyway.

You poor poor dear, you.

You sure as hell don’t understand, that’s obvious. You’d be “sensitive” too if you could never leave your house without somehow having to explain or excuse your appearance. After years of this, it wears you down, you don’t want to explain, you don’t want to “justify” your existence, you don’t want to apologize for being what you are. And that’s what you are constantly having to do. Would you like it? Have you experienced anything like that in your life? My guess is that you haven’t.

That’s what it’s like for a fat person. All the damned time. A fat person is insulted by strangers. A fat person has their family always reminding them they shouldn’t eat this or that. It is mentioned to them that while they have lost a lot of weight, when are they going to lose the rest? It gets you down. So, yeah, we are “sensitive”.

And then this whole Hollywood crap. Quicksilver, if you agreed with my previous statement about Hollywood crap, what the hell was your OP all about? Your OP and many other statements seem to contradict what I was saying.

That is so true, Yosemite.

I was blow drying my hair today and thought about this post some more.

I remembered my stepdad. He didn’t come to mind when I first read this thread because after knowing him a while, you forget that he is overweight. He is an awesome guy.

Twenty years ago he was in a motercycle accident (not his fault) and in traction for two years. He had to get a hip replacement. Then fifteen years later (he was married to my mom by this point) he had to get another replacement, and the same thing happened. As a result of the traction, he could not move and thus not exercise. So he gained a lot of weight.

He cannot walk too much or run at all because of his hip. In fact, my mom has to put his shoes and socks on for him because he cannot bend over. Right now he swims at the YMCA three times a week (only exercise he can do), and he has lost weight, although his doctors told him that b/c of his hip problem, he will never be at his ideal weight.

But it doesn’t bother him. He’s an awesome guy no matter what, and after meeting him, his weight is the last thing you think about.

I’m sure he is not the only fat person to have such a medical problem, nor is he the only one whose weight is simply not as issue.

Welcome to the board, SmilingBandit! Your comments were a little weird, but true nonetheless.

So how tall are you, honey? :wink:

That is so true, Yosemite.

I was blow drying my hair today and thought about this post some more.

I remembered my stepdad. He didn’t come to mind when I first read this thread because after knowing him a while, you forget that he is overweight. He is an awesome guy.

Twenty years ago he was in a motercycle accident (not his fault) and in traction for two years. He had to get a hip replacement. Then fifteen years later (he was married to my mom by this point) he had to get another replacement, and the same thing happened. As a result of the traction, he could not move and thus not exercise. So he gained a lot of weight.

He cannot walk too much or run at all because of his hip. In fact, my mom has to put his shoes and socks on for him because he cannot bend over. Right now he swims at the YMCA three times a week (only exercise he can do), and he has lost weight, although his doctors told him that b/c of his hip problem, he will never be at his ideal weight.

But it doesn’t bother him. He’s an awesome guy no matter what, and after meeting him, his weight is the last thing you think about.

I’m sure he is not the only fat person to have such a medical problem, nor is he the only one whose weight is simply not as issue.

Welcome to the board, SmilingBandit! Your comments were a little weird, but true nonetheless.

So how tall are you, honey? :wink:

This is my first post so I apologize for any breaches of ettiquette and any grammatical or spelling errors. While I will try to edit out errors, I don’t believe any which make the post will cause anyone serious problems in understanding the post. Also sorry about the length, but I will probably only post once and want to fully state my position and supporting information.

First this debate actually inspired me to join this message board. Clearly people have very strong feelings about wieght/fat/health issues (as if this is news to anyone), so I will try to be sensitive. And to give away my position I am a sucker for the underdog, however I feel both sides have very valid points. I know the original post was about Hollywood images, but I don’t think that is the whole subject of the post and it has clearly broadened.

I find it important to note the difference between fitness levels of unhealthy underweight indivduals (anorexics/bulemics/Calista Flockheart, hope I didn’t violate the terms of agreement in my first post by disparaging Calista) and those that have very low body fat, plenty of muscle tone, and are fit.
I come from a large family and intend to use them and myself as anecdotal evidence of my views. I believe we serve as a useful model because we are genetically very similar ( requirement of lab rats in scientific studies I believe) and we encompass a wide variety of body types. My dad was a 3 sport athlete in high school and extremely fit (at 5’10" he weighed 180 pounds with large (bone and muscle) frame). In college and beyond he engaged in physical activity infrequently and reached 230+ pounds. For the past year (age 55) he has engaged in regular fairly intense exercise for 1 hour averaging three times a week and another hour of ashtanga yoga. He has improved his level of fitness, but has not dramatically changed his body composition (proportions of fat and lean body tissue)because he has not adjusted his diet. He is however healthier, stronger and more physically fit. He moves better and feels better.

I was chunky from elementary school and into graduate school. Growing up I did not have good role models for exercise, fitness or a sensible diet. In my junior year of undergrad I began weight training and have steadily increased my routine over 8 years to the point where I now work out twice a day Monday through Friday(40-45 minutes at 6 am and just over an hour at lunch and then eat at my desk). My goal then was to get that shredded “six pack” look, currently I have a four pack and that last layer of fat is stubborn. When I started I thought I would get that look and that would be it. Now I have incorporated exercise into my life as habit, and feel the effects when I miss a session. During the week I treat food as fuel, and generally eat brown rice mixed with frozen vegetables and canned albacore tuna. I can make a weeks worth of lunches packed and ready to go in about a half hour on Sunday night. On the weekends I eat whatever I want, including the occasional Ben and Jerry’s just down the street (the caveat is I must walk). However I try not to go to overboard in the indulgence. I generally weigh the value (in terms of how it will effect my body vs. how good it tastes) of all the food I eat, and I drink lots of water. Currently I am 5’11" and 160 pounds. I have a small frame and enough/plenty of muscle so I look like I can skip a meal or two without dying despite low body fat levels. I find it important to note the difference between fitness levels of unhealthy underweight indivduals (anorexics/bulemics/Calista Flockheart, hope I didn’t violate the terms of agreement in my first post by disparaging Calista) and those that have very low body fat, but plenty of muscle tone.

I feel I have worked hard to get to where I am, and I take pride in my accomplishments. Understandably I can get defensive when someone tries to diminish my accomplishments by thinking I had a genetic advantage. Apparently other people may get similarly defensive. This to me seems to be why this debate has become venomous. When I began, exercise was a tool to reach a goal and I did not particularly enjoy time in the gym (which, like most unfamilar places, can be intimidating). Now I consider fitness a lifestyle. I really know my body, it’s limits and how it reacts to intense exercise and different foods. I consider my time in the gym my personal time or down time and I really enjoy it. In my profession I don’t get the benefit of tangible results that often, so it is nice to compliment work accomplishments with the physical results exercise gives me. The tandem of physical success along with academic/work success has proved, for me, to be a tremendous confidence booster. I constantly strive for new goals, and am very reward oriented. I have a time consumptive career (I leave for work at 8am and raraly return before 7pm, 20 minute commute). I know the intense exercise I engage in helps my body maintain a demanding schedule. Furthermore it will help me age gracefully granting me time to spend on outside activities in excess of the time I spend in the gym. I really believe that regular exercise creates more time than it consumes.

Back to the family anecdote. My Uncle is the sort of person people think is blessed with a high metabolism and can eat whatever he wants without exercise and never gain weight. I believe such people are as rare as those who can’t change their body composition despite watching what they eat and exercising. The truth is he watches his weight and regularly exercises. When he notices he gains weight he eats less and picks the exercise up a nothch to get back to his desired shape (5’9" and 160 pounds on a small frame). Physically he is almost identical to my grandfather. His son (my cousin) was a three sport athlete in high school. He was in extraordinary shape then. However irregular exercise in college turned into no exercise after marriage and I would estimate he has gained at a minimum of 60 pounds.

My oldest aunt was chunky until late in High School. However she began watching her diet (which was unfortunately inspired by ridicule). After High School she began exercising regularly and continues to this day. Now she is 5’9" on a medium frame and weighs a healthy 150 pounds. She would say she is fat.

My youngest aunt was an athlete in high school and very fit. After graduation she married, quit exercising and has steadily gained weight to where she is currently. She is 5’2" and over 200 pounds. In anyones book she would be considered obese. I absolutely love her. She is one of my favorite relatives, and I consider her a role model. She is an extremely dedicated mother and the family bread winner (her husband has to limit his work related and other stress because of a congenital heart defect). She admits her weight is the result of her life choices since she doesn’t place a priority on fat reduction. Physically she resembles my grandmother.

I feel (no scientific evidence, but I would wager a fairly large sum on it) that, like my family, nearly all of us are fairly similar in our genetic ability to be almost any shape in the spectrum, and any differences will be minor. I volunteer for Special Olympics and Paralympics and many of those kids have tremendous genetic deficiencies that the rest of us are blessed enough to have avoided and yet they often achieve surprising results.

Life is a combination of habits. Some of us come from a family that engendered good habits and generally eat only enough to meet their energy requirements. Others of us have adopted the poor habits that were modeled for us or we picked them up on our own. I truly beleive that the way to a satifying life is to identify those habits that have subjectively(from the individuals pespective) dissatisfactory results and change them. It is unfortunate that those people who are obese as a result of their bad habits (and not some other reason) are unable to hide it, like the many hidden bad habits that do not have such an obvious consequence.

The simple truth is an ideal body is the result of dedication and hard work in 99% of the cases. We should all agree that the attainment of a goal through hard work and dedication is something to be admired.

If you are interested in really learning something about this I would recommend the book Body Engineering. I picked up the hardcover at Amazon.com for $5 and change. I find it enlightening and inspiring. Thanks to everyone who read my entire post. I hope everyone finds peace in their indivduality.

Yosemite -

Perhaps Hollywood specifically was bad wording on my part. What I should have said was Hollywood and the fashion industry and the Athletic/Fitness mags and TV personalities, etc… Mass Media in general.

I did not mean to suggest that Calista Flockhart and her like are the ideal role models. I too believe that they are far too thin to be healthy. (How many times am I going to have to say that?)… But the human body is a tricky thing. Many people can be very thin and function quite normally for their entire life without health problems attributed to their lack of fat and muscle mass. As long as their body receives sufficient nutrients to sustain it, their low body weight does not seem to be a source of ill health over the long term. The opposite does not seem to be true. Excessive body fat is directly responsible for a wide range of long and short term health problems. But we are not debating this point. We are debating whether media plays a positive part in helping the public attain a healthier lifestyle with its bevy of beautiful people for all to admire on a virtually endless basis. And since many Americans tend to pick their fashion and body image role models from this select group of people, it follows that people are embracing a more fitness concious lifestyle in order to keep up with the bare midrif set. For further proof of how celebs are acting as positive fitness role models, simply check out the vast numbers of fitness videos constantly being released by celebrities of both film and fashion worlds.

Now to answer the poster who complained about there not being enough grown up sports leagues. That’s simply not true. My manager (in his late 40’s) plays soccer for an “old timer” league. It’s a huge league that spans the US and he has travelled all over the country over the years playing at various events. His team has done well again this year and they are entering the Eastern Coference Playoffs. If they do well, national amateur soccer playoffs will be the next step.
Don’t like soccer? How about pick-up games of basketball, or volleyball at the Y? Adult summer softball leagues are everywhere.
Not into team sports? I play squash at my club during our twice a week round robins. Racquetball is much more popular on the east coast and there are always games and competitions going on at all the local clubs. And of course, instructors are always standing by to give you some tips or lessons to get you started.
Not into aggressive sports? Feet and joints ache? How about an acquatics program. At the same time as my daughter takes her guppie swimming lessons, there is a bunch of people at the other end of the pool boogying to the beat while doing water aerobics. Others are simply swimming laps. Don’t know how to swim? Why not take lessons?
My 80 year old grandmother (honest truth folks!) has been dealing with diabetes for 30 years now. It’s going on 20 years for her arthritis in all her joints and back. She has been battling severe depression since my grandfather suddently died 14 years. She takes more pills than I’ve ever seen in my life including steroids and anti-depressants. But she swims at the Y four days a weeks as a rule. The doctors ask her why and how she manages this, her answer is simple, “If I don’t get out and move, my body will attrophy and I will die in my bed.” But I digress.
Not into water sports either? What about going for a bike ride? You don’t need a $1200 mountain bike to get started.
Into nature? Bird watcher societies are always planning walking excursions to the local parks and rec areas.
I can go on all day and for every excuse you can dream up I can give you an alternative. Fact is, most fat people are not disabled or bed ridden. Most are capable of starting off slow at some modest activity and escalating the difficulty level as their fitness level slowly improves. But you already know that… you don’t need me to tell you all this. And don’t you dare get angry at me about my little speach… you started in with the excuses about why some people can’t exercise and I’m suggeting to you that most can. It’s not usually their sore feet that keeps them from exercise, it’s usually their choice not to.

… and I too have had it with this thread. This has been going around in circles so long that I’m dizzy - and very far behind in my work. So long folks. See you in other debates as time and interest permits. It’s been fun.

Friends don’t let friends watch Friends.

CCompton -

Firstly - Clearly a carefully written post. Not on the OP but we’ve all been all over the place but the OP as well so I can’t honestly fault you for that.

Lastly - Welcome to the Straight Dope forums.

… and yes Regis, this is absolutely my final post to this thread! (Unless somebody says something absolutely irresistable.)

A friend of mine who is unhappy with my weight calls me a lot. Once, when I informed her I was in the middle of a meal, she joked that I should get back to eating my Ho-Ho sandwich.

Thus inspired, I placed two Ho-Hos[TM] between two slices of white bread and munched down on it. Bleah. Suffice it to say, Ho-Ho Sandwiches don’t work.

Just in general, QS, it won’t win you friends to try to get in your licks in a debate, then leave the room before anyone can rebut you.

It’s a shame you’ve gone, just as you’ve widened the field of fire a little bit in your (now pen)ultimate post:

Mass media in general, huh? You lose. “Did anybody say McDonalds?” (Or Wendy’s, or Burger King, or Hardee’s, or KFC, or Popeye’s, or Taco Bell…) Seriously, how many ads for food that’s bad for you do you see on TV? And how many ads for stuff that’s good for you?

(Or on the radio, or in magazines, billboards, whatever. If you’re not sure, just count what you see and hear as you go through a day.)

Every now and then, you see a place mention its salad bar or lo-cal entrees along with a whole bunch of stuff that’s bad for you. But that’s as good as it gets, and for every ad for a place like that, there’s dozens of them for Mickey D’s and its siblings.

In short, the media as a whole spend a lot of time telling us to eat fatty foods. Personally, I think that’s a terrible influence, and I would expect you to agree.

So you’ve got the less-than-helpful Calista Flockharts of the world, and then you’ve got a zillion commercials for junk food. No, there’s no way in hell to say that the mass media in general are a positive influence on people’s weight and/or health.

I’ve heard that fatty foods aren’t too bad for young kids below about age 8 or so. Supposedly, they need more fat than adults do, for growth and stuff.

This is because it was made incorrectly. A Ho-Ho sandwich is properly made by putting a Twinkie or Choc-O-Dile between two Ho-Hos.

A far better varient, however, is the Snowball sandwich wherein a Red Coconut Zinger is placed between two slightly smooshed Snowballs.

The guiding principle is an oblong snack-cake must be placed betwen two round snack-cakes.

Fenris (not proud that I know this…)

. . . except that HoHos are cylindrical. I think a Twinkie between two Ding Dongs would be more the kind of sandwich you’re envisioning.

Okay, I didn’t want to say anything for fear that I’d “jinx” it – but if I didn’t speak up now this thread might vanish.

Ready? Okay. Ahem This thread has inspired me to attempt to make a subtle but permanent change in my eating habits. (I would have said a change in my “diet”, except that the word “diet” has become loaded and now usually means only a temporary change in eating habits. That, and it’s a prefix for the names of all products that use artificial sweeteners.) The change in permanent eating habits I’m trying to accomplish involves, quite simply, eating only small amounts of food that are high in saturated fat (like pizza). I don’t want to count fat grams or do anything else that will require a constant act of will or control; I intend merely to direct my appetite toward low-fat things when I get hungry, and not eat when I’m not hungry.

Wish me luck! One of the posters in this thread said the first 6-10 months are the worst, so I should know how well I’m going to stick with this in, oh, around 10 months.

If Ding-dongs are the ‘creme’ filled chocolate cakes covered in chocolate icing and are shaped like hockey pucks, then you’re right, that’s what I meant, but then…what’s a Ho-Ho?

Fenris

Didn’t your parents teach you anything? :slight_smile: Ho-Hos are rolled-up Ding Dongs. They’re cylindrical, about 4 inches long and 1 inch in diameter, and if you cut one in half you’ll see this spiral swirl of chocolate cake and creme filling. Like Ding Dongs, Ho-Hos are also covered in chocolate icing.

I have been overweight my whole life - ever since I was born. I am overweight in ALL of my childhood pictures. My mother started me on diets when I was 9. The only way I could lose weight was to restrict my caloric intake to 900 calories a day (and I was exercising too). This is not NORMAL in any sense. Some people just cannot lose weight.

I could go on and on about how those early diets traumatized me and made me feel horrible about myself because, if my own mother couldn’t accept how I looked, how could anyone else?

I will say that there is a happy ending in sight. I discovered that I am allergic to gluten and casein. Once I was gluten and casein free, the pounds started melting off. (45 pounds in 4 months.) Granted, I still have about 80 pounds to go. Now I am concerned about losing weight too fast. It is necessary for me to exercise because I could be losing muscle rather than just fat. My caloric intake hasn’t been reduced because of this either. I’ve done the math.

Also WEIGHT should not be the deciding issue here. BMI is much more reliable. My sister has a healthy BMI and is 5’11" and weighs 190 lbs. She exercises every day, and eats very healthily (she is a nutrition major), but she will never be 150 pounds either. She looks great. She’s healthy. That’s all that should matter.

At 5’7", my goal weight is 175. Any less and I look like Calista. If I were 130 pounds at 5’7" with my frame, I’d look like a skeleton. Those height/weight charts are a bunch of bullshit.

Don’t harrass the overweight. Don’t harrass the underweight. We’re doing the best we can. (And weighing 265 pounds right now, I can say that I eat healthier than any thin person that I know personally right now. With the dietary restrictions, I have to be totally conscious of what I eat.

And Phouka - you rock!

What’s the right way to calculate Body Mass Index (BMI)? The only on-line calculator I found just asks for your height and your weight.

There is so much to a person’s body than just height and weight.

All the women in my family weigh much more than they look. I guarantee, we’d all fool those professional weight-guessers and amusment parks. We must have heavy bones, big bones, lots of muscle, lead in our calves…something. It’s freaky.

I am a Big Girl right now, no doubt about it. But I am not my weight. If you went by my weight and height you’d think I’d be quite obese. But I’m more Delta Burke-esque in size right now. Big…but not alarmingly so. Some women can be 5’4" and a size 12 and weigh 130 pounds. When I have been a size 12 (and I’m 5’4") I am about 185 pounds. (I’m not a size 12 now…alas…) But how can this be? A size 12 is not that large…and I am balanced all over, no big belly, or other large body parts. Just some extra padding all over. Most women (who know clothing sizes) will agree that anyone who can fit into a size 12 at 5’4" could not possibly be that obese. But a 5’4" woman who weighs 185 would most certainly be considered obese. So which is it? Would I be obese even though I don’t look that big, and even though I don’t have thick layers of fat all over my body? Are my sisters and mom obese because they can be a size 12/14 at 5’6" and weigh 160 - 170 pounds? They don’t look obese to me. No one would consider them obese to look at them. And when they lose enough weight to get to the supposed “ideal” weight for their height (even the high-end “ideal” number) they look starving and ill. Everyone who sees them thinks they look ill. So…which is it? Look ill and sickly but be the “right” weight? Or weigh “too much” and look normal and healthy?

Well, this is a ramble, but I am just trying to say…I don’t take much stock in how many pounds I weigh, just the clothing size I fit into, and how well I get around.

So are you saying I should factor, say, my shoulder width into the BMI calculation? :slight_smile: