The Final, Ultimate, Supreme Bush v. Kerry Thread!

Well, I’m no expert on libertarian policies. I do tend to be a small “l” libertarian because of my leanings towards less government.

Having said that, here is my take on your question: The libertarian philosophy is decidedly not an internationalist one.

From the Libertarian Party Platform:

I agree with the gist of this, although the wording is bit stong for my tastes. I’d say that participation in world government tends to threaten our sovereignty.

I certainly do think that the US should act to protect it’s interests with or without the UN. It’s better to have the UN and/or international coalitions on our side. But, if something is worth doing then it’s worth doing alone. IMO Kerry would give too much power to the UN and to the international criminal court.

And why is that a bad thing? Perhaps I misunderstood, but I thought libertarianism was all about the freedom and autonomy of individuals. Not nations, not states, not communities, not even families. Individuals. And organizations, such as business enterprises, which individuals have voluntarily joined and can leave at any time.

I’m at a loss how to explain why something that threatens the sovereignty of the US is a bad thing for the US.

I don’t know what business enterprises has to do with international government entities such as the UN.

Libertarianism is about freedom of individuals. But it’s also about local control. A town better knows how to spend it’s tax dollars and look after it’s citizen’s interests than a state. A state is a wiser steward of it’s money than the federal government. The nation is a better protector of it’s citizens than the international community is.

Most of the countries in Europe have given up some of their sovereignty to the European Union, and that seems to be working out very well for them. And so far as I know, no country that has joined the ICC has had any real cause to regret it.

Be careful, Debaser. That kind of “local autonomy” thinking could be – in fact, has been – used to defend local-government-supported abuses any libertarian should in principle find intolerable, such as slavery and segregation.

I once read a passage from a book on the antebellum Southern aristocracy – one member of that class, a U.S. Senator, was described as pounding his bullwhip on his desk during a floor debate, roaring, “I am an aristocrat! I hate equality! I love freedom!” “Freedom,” of course, meaning his freedom to lord it over his slaves without interference from some carpetbagging moralistic do-gooder. IMO, a lot of modern American libertarians have a lot more in common with that rat-bastard than they have with John Stuart Mill.

BrainGlutton, you’ve posted this gem of yours before and I still fail to see it as anything but deliberately incendiary. What’s your point here? That a slave-owner who claimed to love freedom refused to allow others to exercise that right? That’s hypocrisy. What does this have to do with any ideology?

And please provide even the slightest bit of evidence for this: “a lot of modern American libertarians have a lot more in common with that rat-bastard than they have with John Stuart Mill.”

Just because it was used as an excuse by some to cover up their authoritarian policies doesn’t mean it’s can’t be a legitimate reason for those who truly believe in the tenets of libertarianism.

What does this have to do with individual liberties?

BTW, while the Libertarian Party would oppose US participation in the UN, it would also oppose wars against countries that don’t threaten us. The LP also considers the draft a form of slavery–it would only approve of a volunteer army.

Back to the OP: Since it seems that I’ll be voting absentee in a heavily Democratic state (New York), I’m not sure. If Kerry’s a lock, I might vote for Badnarik; but if there’s any chance of a Bush win, Kerry gets my vote.*

Why? Basically, the usual lesser-of-two-evils argument. Reasons to vote against Bush: the Patriot Act, his opposition to gay marriage, the funding of religious charities, the Iraq War, his stance on abortion, drug laws, civil liberties, and general strengthening of the federal government. Reasons not to vote for Kerry: his position on guns, national / homeland security, and gay rights (obviously to a lesser extent than Bush); health care is the only issue where I would be interested in Kerry’s plan, even if I didn’t quite agree with it.

*And the way things are looking right now, I might just vote for Kerry because I want to be sure that I’ve done everything in my power to prevent Bush from regaining the office.

I will vote for John Kerry because I beleive the Iraq war to be a colossal screw-up of historic proportions that has cost live, money, international clout and has not made us safer, but has probably made it more dangerous. Someone must be held accountable for this and that someone is George W. Bush.

Normally I vote on ecomoic issues, but not this time. I am not a huge Kerry fan, and while I don’t believe in anybody but Bush, I can certainly vote for feel good enough about Kerry to get Bush out.

This utterly amazes me.

Seems to me that the last thing they want is strict Costitutionalists. Actually, it appears pretty obvious that they don’t like the Constitution, because they’re pushing so hard to ammend it to allow them to descriminate.

Bush wants conservative judges who will push his agenda regardless of its Constitutional correctness.

I didn’t want to start a new thread about this so I thought I would make a slight hijack of this one. I am sure many of you have seen Farenheit 911 by now. I saw it for the first time tonight. The young Democrats over at Newberry College arranged for a free showing and some freinds invited me to come. The movie was very interesting and I learned some things that pissed me off even more than I already was. However, the one thing that really caught my eye was in the grade school classroom where Bush was during the attacks. I had seen this footage before but never noticed the little sign behind Bush on the black board. Considering that I beleive one of Bush’s greatest short comings to be his continued slaughter of the English language and his confessed aversion to reading, I had a hardy laugh when I read the grade school sign just over his shoulder: “Reading makes our country great !”. :smack:

Really? When did he confess to that?

  1. Find a good intellectual cause … like American history. Bush is famous for his aversion to reading policy papers. He frowns on intellectualism as if it were broccoli.

http://www.jamesglaser.org/2003/p20031231.html

President Bush has told us that he never reads the newspaper, but has people tell him what is going on in the world every day at a briefing.

http://www.opendemocracy.net/articles/ViewPopUpArticle.jsp?id=3&articleId=2025

To begin with, there is the president’s own aversion to reading and debate.

, Bush said, and asks Card: “What’s in the newspapers worth worrying about? I glance at the headlines just to kind of (get) a flavor of what’s moving,” Bush said. “I rarely read the stories,” he said.
It’s too bad that Bush’s reading habits take him out of the information link that connects us and provides the glue that holds our society together.

Think about it. Bush claims that he doesn’t read newspapers. The photo at left shows him holding a book upside down.

http://www.blackcommentator.com/78/78_fr_bush.html

President Bush: Why even put up with it when you can get the facts elsewhere? I’m a lucky man. I’ve got, it’s not just Condi and Andy, it’s all kinds of people in my administration who are charged with different responsibilities, and they come in and say this is what’s happening, this isn’t what’s happening.

However, he’s not a well educated person – he never reads books. Although Blair did tell me he once read a book – it was on the slave trade.”
:smiley: Whoopsie ! That last one is about Tony Blair and his aversion to reading. :slight_smile:

So all you really have is Bush saying that he does not like reading newspapers. Figures.

In addition to the fact that that quote is plagiarized, it is false as well. But hey, don’t let the truth get in the way of your thinly-veiled pitting.

small-l libertarian here who will vote for Kerry since I happen to be in a swing state

I’m a moderate libertarian. Unlike the party who a few years back wanted to repeal the income tax in one fell swoop, I see the welfare state as a knot that has to be untied carefully.

I tend to agree with the Dems on social issies and the Reps on economic ones.

I like less government. In my lifetime, Reps have tended to increase the size and reach of the government, as much, if not more than the Dems.

One of the few really legitimate roles of the national government is to protect the people from violence. The problem is, our government and its military tend to grow and grow and reach out much further than is necessary for true defense. So I’m skeptical about our aggressive foreign policy, but a realist who will put up with whatever seems necessary based on my limited knowledge of such. I supported the war at first, but at the time I thought Irak was in cahoots with terrorists. I believed Colin Powell.

Faith-based leaders scare me, and Bush strikes me, on a personal level as an idiot.

jus’ my 2 cents

It amazes me that anyone could think that judges pushing a conservative agenda could be more of a threat than the many judges who push a liberal agenda. Conservative judges tend to defer to the constitution and limit the scope of thier own authority. It’s the liberal judges who tend towards activism from the bench and push an agenda.

It’s funny that you mention the proposed ammendment on gay marriage. The only reason that this has even come about is because of the liberal activist judges deciding to force gay marriage on a public who hasn’t voted on it and is largely against it.

I’m against changing the constitution to block gay marriage. However, at least the conservatives are going through the proper channels and creating an ammendment rather than simply deciding what’s best for everyone by making decisions from the bench that are far outside the scope of their authority.

Sleeper has already responded well to your post. I’d just add that this is your thread, so you can do what you like. However, I don’t see what a debate about the merits of Libertarianism has to do with the OP.

I don’t personally agree with everything that the LP stands for. However, I do share lots of their views and would at least like to give them a seat at the table. My take on it is that the country would be better served by a congress of 45 Democrats, 45 Republicans and 5 Libertarians and even 5 Greens. This would more accurately reflect the views of the actual voters. Also, the small groups having some seats would give them power. The big parties would need to have them on board to get anything passed. They could be a check to many of the bad government programs and spending.

It seems to me that the “liberal” judges are the ones who interpret the Constitution to mean that rights apply to everyone, and not just those with a Judeo-Christian lifestyle.

Conservative judges are equally capable of pushing agendas. It’s the moderate judges who tend to defer to the Constitution.

I’m sure that if you’d taken an opinion poll at the beginning of the Civil Rights movements, you wouldn’t have seen much support for those “uppity” black people who dared to ask to be treated the same as whites, either.

Jesus Christ, since when did we start voting on civil liberaties? That notion sends a shiver down my spine.

Which “decisions” were outside the scope of their authority??? Deciding that the Constitution doesn’t give grounds to discriminate? Last time I read the thing, it certainly seemed to imply it. Going over the dozen or so decisions that I can recall in recent memory, I haven’t come up with a single instance of the court overstepping its authority. Its job is to interpret the Constitution and rule against laws and activities which violate its precepts. That’s what they’ve been doing. You may not agree with their decisions, but that doesn’t mean they were’t “allowed” to make them.

It is deliberately incendiary, and appropriate. I know a lot about libertarianism. In my college years I considered myself a libertarian, though I never joined any organization. But grew disaffected because I couldn’t square my conscience with the likely social consequences of abolishing affirmative action, the welfare state, etc. And that began the process by which, over many years and a lot of odd twists and turns and reluctant steps, I came to embrace democratic socialism (but not Marxism). And now, like a reformed Communist, I never want to pass up a chance to explain to Libertarians why they are wrong. With respect to their political views, Libs on the whole are even more blinkered and self-righteous than Commies, and definitely need to be taken down a peg.

It has to do with the things Debaser was defending – “states’ rights,” “local autonomy,” “decentralization,” “self-determination.” There are a lot of obvious practical merits to those things – just so long as you do not elevate them to the status of political principles in their own right! There’s a very ugly side to those “principles” in American history and that did not come to an end in 1865. Respecting “local autonomy” might mean allowing states and communities to make and enforce horribly unjust laws and policies, such as segregation, without outside interference. (Some of the quasi-official organizations created in Southern states to fight against the civil rights movement were labeled "sovereignty commissions.) It might mean leaving a local bully like Al Capone alone to lord it over his fief. It might mean allowing prosperous urban residents to relocate to gated communities outside the city line, and leave the city to languish, and stop paying city taxes while continuing to enjoy the regional economic and cultural opportunities for which the city is the main engine – and to start squawking about “local autonomy” if anybody suggests expanding the city boundaries. It might even mean allowing a prosperous part of the city to “secede” from the rest and divest itself of any responsibility for its neighbors’ problems, as Hollywood recently tried to secede from L.A.

Even the practical merits of decentralization are overrated. In “A Horde of Lilliputian Governments,” an article Michael Lind wrote for the New Leader (about 10 years ago – can’t put my hands on it right now), he noted that he had worked in government at several levels, and based on his experience he formulated what he called “Lind’ Law”: The lower you go in the federal-state-local hierarchy, the more stupidity, incompetence, venality and corruption you will find in government. If you think Washington bureaucrats are bad, just check out your local Clerk of Court’s office. (Or, slightly more relevant to this thread, your local Supervisor of Elections’ office.)

This, BTW, is why I won’t join the Green Party. One of their Ten Key Values is “decentralization.” They’re right about a lot of things, but not that.

I stated that as “IMO,” so it is not really appropriate to ask for evidence. But, for one thing, modern American libertarian thinking was heavily influenced by that heartless bitch Ayn Rand, who did indeed have a lot more in common with that rat-bastard than she had with John Stuart Mill – in both her thoughts and her actions. (Not that she actually kept slaves, of course. But some of her followers would have been hard-pressed to tell the difference.)

And it’s also based on personal experience. I’ve known a lot of libertarians over the years, casually and intimately, big-L and small-l. Most of them are decent people and some are remarkably wonderful people. But there are also many who seem to be libertarians mainly because they hate poor people, and don’t want to be burdened in any way by helping take care of them. There are many libertarians who seem to have the attitude that they are mentally superior types, like Howard Roarke or John Galt, who could thrive (and successfully exploit their inferiors) in the lawless or near-lawless society of which libertarianism dreams. There are libertarians who are simply social Darwinists of the worst kind. There are libertarians who seem to have the attitude, I got mine, so fuck the botched and the bungled. And their contempt for democracy, or for any form of communitarian values, is sometimes astonishing. I once saw a message-button at a science fiction convention (there are a lot of libs in fandom, for some reason – maybe it’s Heinlein’s influence, maybe it’s the alienated-nerd thing) which read, “Democracy is four wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.” Which is pure bullshit. Democracy is four sheep and a wolf voting on what to have for dinner. In real life the sheep outnumber the wolves and that’s the only advantage they’ve got.

Debaser, who rejects Kerry because of his “internationalism,” said, “I’m at a loss how to explain why something that threatens the sovereignty of the US is a bad thing for the US.” I was stating a case that it is wrong, even in libertarian terms, to reject Kerry for that reason. (For that matter, it is wrong to classify Kerry as an “internationalist.” He’s just as much an American nationalist as Bush, more’s the pity, he’s just more reasonable about it.) Empirical evidence shows that it is not necessarily a bad thing for a nation-state to give up some of its sovereignty; the European nations have done exactly that and done very well by it. As for, “What does this have to do with individual liberties?” – The same evidence shows that a nation can, indeed, give up some of its sovereignty without diminishing the liberties of its individual citizens. And the U.S. could do the same, and any really intelligent and open-minded libertarian should be prepared to at least consider that that might be a good thing.

England. There is a huge and vocal part of the population that is very unhappy with EU membership. And England managed to keep most of it’s policies intact, especially fiscal policies. But a lot of people don’t like ‘getting orders from Brussels.’

Just because some of them don’t like it doesn’t mean it’s not working out well for them. Nationalist attitudes die hard; that doesn’t mean they have any value.