I didn’t say you couldn’t experience God outside the Bible. Of course, He can be present in the opening of a flower, or sunset, or whatever. But where are we going to go for the truth about who He is, His character, His attributes, the history of creation, the fall, God’s plan of redemption, etc.? You misunderstand what I say or I just don’t explain it well enough. How do you know Moses’ followers didn’t read the Bible? God used Moses himself to write the first 5 books. Anyway, I guess trying to explain is rather useless. We don’t see things the same way or even think alike.
His, you really need to read more. Modern Biblical scholarship holds that the Pentateuch was compiled from four separate sources from the 9th to the 5th centuries BC.
But even assuming your simple-minded literal reading is true, a few minutes thought would help you realize that Moses’s followers couldn’t have read the whole Bible. (Hint: Who was born first? Moses, the Prophets, or Jesus?)
What piqued my curiosity was this sentence: ‘I wouldn’t know about God and Christ if not for His word.’ If you’re saying that for you personally it wasn’t possible to see God in the world until a book had told you he was there, then that’s fine. I’d be surprised if that were the case though. You seem intelligent, and your faith is very strong, which leads me to understand that you must have had some profound spiritual experiences before you simply took the word of the Bible as true. Without faith, the Bible is just words. Surely faith must come first?
You just answered it yourself. Those five books only came into existence during Moses’ time. The later books of the Old Testament and the whole of the New Testament didn’t exist. Of course, very few of the people then would have been able to read at all, but with non-existent books it’s even harder.
Hey, I asked a genuine question, and I wasn’t hostile about it. I hope I don’t sound hostile now - I don’t mean to be, at any rate. I’m interested in what you have to say. Though of course you are free to say nothing to this Godless Heathen.
I’ll be more specific:
Which is more important, the Bible or your own personal experience of God? If your own personal experience of God contradicts something the bible says, should the Bible overrule God?
(This of course goes out to any other interested Christians too).
gobear…
“…assuming your simple-minded literal reading is true…”
Doesn’t God use the simple things to confound the wise? 
I’m a “simple-minded” man too, but then it is the righteous who live by faith. Just read the bible. The rest may be interesting, but unnessesary. And man, saying people are ‘simple-minded’ reminds me of the scripture that says we should think of others as better than ourselves.
SciFiSam…
“Which is more important, the Bible or your own personal experience of God? If your own personal experience of God contradicts something the bible says, should the Bible overrule God?”
Not sure I understand this… you’re asking if my own experience contradicts the bible, should the bible override… what god? The god of my mind? What you wrote sounds a little confusing 
Imagine if God spoke to you. You learnt a whole heap of things from him (the creator of the whole world, and everything in it- the universe too) and you realised all of a sudden that you’d been living as an enemy to him all of your life. You knew it… but the world had distracted you and you’d… well, missed it. God gave you a way to be brought back to him, so that you could be reconsiled to your creator, even though you didn’t deserve his friendship, love, or even forgiveness.
Would you trade in a personal expereince, based on your own limited understanding, created through your roller-coaster like emotions, for this imformation? I wouldn’t in a million years, and that’s why I take God’s message to the human race over anything my feeble brain can stumble over.
I would have to choose the word of God over personal experience. Our perceptions and experiences can be deceiving. I’d rather trust what God’s word says about something. Oh, and if an experience comes from God, I don’t believe it will contradict His word. We are told to test things as in 1 John 4:1-3 and also the Bereans checked the Bible to make sure what they were being told was true. Sorry, I don’t have the Bible reference on that at the moment. I don’t see it as “lettting the Bible overrule God.” Any experience coming from him will harmonize with that word imho.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Reactor *
**gobear…
“…assuming your simple-minded literal reading is true…”
Doesn’t God use the simple things to confound the wise? I’m a “simple-minded” man too, but then it is the righteous who live by faith. Just read the Bible. The rest may be interesting, but unnecessary. And man, saying people are ‘simple-minded’ reminds me of the scripture that says we should think of others as better than ourselves.
[quote]
So getting one’s facts right is “interesting but unnecessary.” It’s nice that you have faith, lots of people do, but blinding one’s eyes to history and science in pursuit of a literal reading of the bible is not faith but folly. Moreover, the selective reading of Levitical and Pauline texts is an example of hypocrisy, not faith. If you cite Leviticus against gay people, then you had better not touch ham or shellfish or wear clothing made of mixed fabric, and I had better see some phylacteries on your right arm and forehead when you pray because those are Levitical commands also.
Isn’t it only your mind which tells you to believe the Bible? What is the source of your faith in the Bible? Is it based on reason? Is it just an arbitrary choice? Is it social conditioning? What reason is there to trust the Bible which isn’t fallible?
And how do you know, of all the “messages” on earth which claim to be from gods, which one is the true one?
The Koran tells you that the the Christian Bible is in error and that Jesus was not God. How do you know that you’re not ignoring the word of God, as dictated to Mohammed, and following a false and idolotrous religion?
How do you know that the Bible is “God’s word?” Why do you believe it? (Please don’t quote scripture, scripture is only convincing if you already believe it. It’s not a reason to believe it. This point will no doubt sail right past you once again, though).
Look gobear, the point of the bible is the cross, isn’t it? And to know of your folly before God we have the ten commandments, right? You show me where science and history add to fundamental bible theology and I’ll agree with you. What you’re saying is that the colour of the gravel road in a love story holds just as much importance as the love story itself. You ist not bein da talkin’ da sence there.
“…selective reading of Levitical and Pauline texts is an example of hypocrisy, not faith.”
I can have faith if I believe a yellow spotted donut could make it for president one day, gobear. That’s a really bad statement you just made. Using the word hypocrisy in that sentence makes me wonder if you even know what it means.
“So getting one’s facts right is “interesting but unnecessary.””
I didn’t say this. I said extra bible information is unnessesary. The bible’s facts are nessesary to get right. Try and read what I’m saying next time.
What you’re saying makes me even curious if you’re a christian at all. Maybe you should take your head out of every book other than the bible and start reading it again. Yes, that’s an assumption that you don’t read it much. Maybe I’m wrong on that one. But I find it very diffciult to understand how someone like yourself can have such little understanding of Leviticus’ bearing on NT theology. I’d expect that responce from someone off the street-- not someone who calls others ‘simple-minded’.
Didn’t Jesus say that to look upon someone of the other sex with lust was the same as commiting adultery with them in your heart? Men and women produce babies. Why do you think men sleep with men, or women with women? Or did God destroy Sodom for no reason at all? Don’t tell me… to believe that is hypocrisy as well?
“…literal reading of the bible is not faith but folly.”
And of course, you having the ear of God would know.
Whoa Diogenes… lotsa questions…
“The Koran tells you that the the Christian Bible is in error and that Jesus was not God. How do you know that you’re not ignoring the word of God, as dictated to Mohammed, and following a false and idolotrous religion?”
You read both to make sure. The Koran is full of basic errors. For example, it mentions that Mary was born a virgin, but for no real reason! No muslim can answer this. The bible has the original theological reason- that is, Jesus was born without sin, or a lawless nature, which the bible teaches has been past down through the generations. The Koran talks about the bible, but has no real understanding of its content.
Do the investigation yourself. I have no doubt you’ll come to the same conclusion. Anyway, I’m sure someone else can comment on your other questions
I don’t think you’re reading the thread fully. My post was in reference to His4Ever’s assertion that the Pentateuch was written by Moses, which is contradicted by almost all Biblical scholars. I have no argument with belief in the Atonement and Resurrection since they are untestable propositions and hence Mysteries of Faith[sup]TM[/sup]. But when His makes statements that are testable, and demonstrably false, then history and science are relevant to the theology.
His is very fond of quoting Biblical texts that condemn homosexuality, but when Biblical texts that condemn multiple marriages, or even eating ham sandwiches, are quoted back at her, she finds an excuse that allows her to use a non-literal interpretation. She is a hypocrite because she herself violates the sexual conduct codes of the Bible that she condemns in others.
Why don’t you read the posts previous to yours so you’ll know what they are are discussing. His has a history of ignoring facts that contradict her pet prejudices.
I’m not a Christian at all. I’m an atheist, thank you very much.
You most certainly are.
Pray illustrate my “little understanding” of the Levitical foundation of NT theology.
Yep, Matthew 5:27-28
Relevance?
For the exact same reasons men and women sleep together, except for reproduction, of course. But if you are going to condemn gay sex because it does not lead to reproduction , then you’ll have to condemn sex by childless hetero couples too.
No, but it is possibly misinformed. The fundy view, of course, is that God smote Sodom because it was chockfull of confirmed bachelors. Another interpretation favored by some scholars is that God destroyed Sodom as a condemantion of rape and the violation of the laws of hospitality toward strangers. Genesis 19:4-5 reads:
Pastors who use this passage to condemn all homosexual relations might as well use the rape of Tamar in 2 Samuel 13 1-14 to condmen all heterosexual relations.
I wouldn’t presume to elevate myself on the level of the Almighty as you do, but I’ll put my understanding of Scripture against anybody on this board.
In any event, you are new here and you are stepping into the middle of a conversation that has been going on for a couple of years now. You might wish to read up on old threads on this subject because the topics you raise have been gone over many times.
Well, first, you’re wrong about the Qu’ran because it does explain the significance of the Virgin Birth. In Sura 21:91, the Quran says:
Muslims explicitly reject Jesus as the Son of God; instead, they believe Jesus was a great prophet, born of a virgin in order to show the power of God. Now, their reasons for the Virgin birth may differ from the Christian Messianic explanation, but you’re flat out wrong to say the Muslims don’t have one.
Moreover, you’re wrong about the Bible prophesying that Jesus would be born of a virgin.The KJV mistranslates Isaiah 7:14 as "Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, " but if you bother to read the Hebrew text, the word used is almah, which means "young woman. Hebrew has a word that specifically means “virgin” (bethulah), but it is not used here.
To use your own words,
I have no idea what you’re talking about here. If facts and science contradict the Bible then the Bible is wrong, is it not?
It’s hypocritical to cite Leviticus as a weapon against others if you’re not willing to follow it yourself.
What about when the Bible is contradicted by facts? Do you believe that the sky is a solid dome with a bunch of water on top of it? The Bible says it is.
Gobear is an atheist, and from what I’ve seen of his posting, he’s quite well read, not just on the Bible but on many other religions as well. Maybe you should read something besides the Bible and Biblical apolgetics. Try some Biblical criticism for instance. Find out what the actual current scholarship is. It couldn’t hurt.
Jesus didn’t exactly say that looking at someone of “the opposite sex with lust” was adultery. He said that whoever lusts after another man’s wife commits adultery in his heart. If you’re not married and she’s not married you can lust all you want.
I think I can safely say, though, that gobear has not lusted after a lot of married women, or even unmarried women.
Sex is not only for reproduction or else infertile and elderly couples would be forbidden from having sex.
Sodom was destroyed for its inhospitality to angels, not for homosexuality…not that there’s anything historical about that story anyway.
Gobear is an atheist. He has no use for God’s ear.
You haven’t actually enunciated a Koranic error, here. Muslims believe that Jesus was born of a virgin. They don’t believe he was God, but that he was a great prophet and that he was born “pure” so that he would be able to speak the word of God.
The Holy Koran was dictated to the Prophet Mohammed by the angel, Gabriel. The Koran is the pure word of God and the Koran says that your Bible is in error. Aren’t you concerned about this?
I’ve done plenty of investigation myself. I have a college degree in this stuff, dude. ;j
That’s odd, considering I asked you about how you, personally, arrived at certain beliefs. Does anyone else know more about your beliefs than you do?
The thing is, we weren’t saying His was a bad person-I have no problem whatsoever with her divorce-it’s her life, and she wasn’t sinning, in my opinion.
HOWEVER, if she is going to apply the Bible literally to everyone else, and not do it in her own life, I WILL call her on THAT.
No - God tells us exactly what the reason is for His destruction of Sodom. And according to the Lord Himself, homosexuality had nothing to do with it.
If you’re going to go around using a book to condemn the behavior of others, at the very least you need to make damn sure you know exactly what that book says on the subject.
Let’s not leave out this one, **king_of_spain.[/b[
Jude 7 - Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Okay His, but how do you know “going after strange flesh” means homosexuality, or is even an accurate translation of the original text?
And by the way, how about some commentary on the site I linked to previously, here?
You could give that argument about any scripture anybody puts forth, and people usually do. It’s a good way to keep from having to take any of it seriously for those who don’t want to. It doesn’t necessarily have to be talking about H, (though I personally think it is) since God, imho, has made his feelings on that clear in other verses. No, I’m not going to debate those, been there done that. The H debate usually goes nowhere fast.
Checked that link and I don’t think I’m going to base my beliefs on what’s there. Call me crazy.
I hate it when I’m the one arguing that you need to read the Bible literally! The sin of Sodom was explicitly described by Isaiah and Ezekiel, and consisted in living a life of self-gratification in luxury, a “Me first; get your own if you want the same thing” type of attitude, as opposed to hospitality, generosity, and common decency towards others. Included in this was the idea that they wanted to “un-man” Lot’s two visitors by making them the passive recipients of anal rape, instead of treating them as strangers within their gates entitled to the hospitality of the host city, as was the proper custom among decent people of the ancient Near East.
But, of course, some people will twist Scripture to their own devices, finding ways to misinterpret it to make the points they want it to make…
(Gee, does this sound familiar?)