The fullness of the Godhead and salvation

I’m not going to get into the the “my invisible friend can beat up your invisible friend” discussion you’re having with the pagans, since from my POV, all of you are talking to empty air.

But this line that you fundies trot out makes it very difficult for me to speak to you people wihtout raising my voice.

Noe from your narow, judgmental perspective, you think being gay is sinful and all sins are the same blah blah blah. . .

but I grow increasingly tired of you folks constantly comparing my relationship, a relationship that gives me joy and gives me love and support, to murder. Not only is is grossly illogical, but it is also incredibly insulting.

Tell you what, next time a fundie gets on me about not being htero, I’ll say, “why should I drag myself down to the level of someone who tortures animals?” So, since I find heterosexual sex distasteful and I find animal torture distasteful, then by your logic, straight sex is equivalent to torturing animals since one distasteful thing equals all other distasteful things.

Not buying it, Polycarp. God didn’t trash and burn two cities just for being inhospitable, other places such as Jude 7 state their sexual wickedness. It’s just an attempt to justify. The mantra of “it’s only wrong if you use people or it’s lust, etc. etc.” is reallly tiresome. Show me a scripture that states that, all I see it saying is that it’s wrong, period. I don’t see the other additions you’re adding. Oh, and your’e obviously right, people do twist the scriptures. What am I doing?! We’ve already agreed to disagree on this subject since neither one of us is going to change our minds. :smack:

Reactor, Your posts are good and you explain things well, much better than me. Keep it up!

Hey His, are you going to explain why you’re still living in sin now?

His4ever…

Thanks :slight_smile: I think your posts are fine… but then, I’m wrong about everything apparently, so…
gobear

“…this line that you fundies trot out…”

It wasn’t a line. It was a question. And, I’m sorry if you have such a big chip on your shoulder about the whole issue that you get all offened at my simple question. Come on man. The original reasoning (that wasn’t even yours) is just as flawed as my point in question, which was meant to be extreme.
“…a relationship that gives me joy and gives me love and support…”

You mean a relationship that feeds your selfishness and inward focus? I mean, I’m glad you’re happy, and I’m glad someone cares about you, but let’s be real here. It’s rebellion against your creator for the sake of your own desires.
“So, since I find heterosexual sex distasteful and I find animal torture distasteful…”

This has nothing to do with what either you or I personally find distastful. This has to do with God, and how things have been ordained to work. We can kill animals, but animals can’t kill us because we were made in God’s image. As much as you hate all of what I’m telling you, there will be one side of the judgement seat of God in which you will discover that God really is in charge, and all of your life you’ve been fighting against him to feed those feelings of lonelyness and whatever else you deal with because of sin.

You only hate God because he disagrees with you.

I can’t speak for jr8, but I can tell you about my own experience.

YES, I have spent a great deal of time (years, even!) considering the Christian Bible and its message.
I have come to the conclusion that it likely has no supernatural origin, and that evangelicals like you are mistaken and misguided. I did not arrive at this conlusion lightly, and I did

NOT

arrive at that conclusion based on “rebellion” or “lawlessness” or whatever you call it. I came to that conclusion based on thoughtful and careful study and through much soul searching.

Now - will you seek to understand what I am saying? Or will you dismiss it out of hand with a thinly (or not so thinly) veiled insult claiming the influence of evil? If the former, I welcome an interaction with you.

Awaiting your response,

MH

Of course it does. Do you believe in the literal Genesis story of creation? Do you think the sun revolves around the Earth? Do you think the sky is a solid dome? Do you believe that the whole Earth was flooded a few thousand years ago?

These are only some of the most obvious factual errors. There are many other things which are contradicted by science, by history, by archaeology and by common sense. I won’t even go into all the self-contradictions and inconsistencies. In the many instances where scripture is belied by fact, how do you reconcile it? Or do you just stick your fingers in your ears and say “la la la, I can’t hear you?”

This shows an incorrect view both of Catholicism and the Koran. The virgin birth is explained by Islam, and Catholics don’t call salvation a “mystery.” You have failed to identify an error in the Koran, and that’s a problem for you because the Koran says that you are committing a grievous error in your idoltrous worship of Jesus. Aren’t you concerned about this?

BTW, your comment about the Bible not referring to the Koran is kind of silly since the Koran did not exist when the Bible was written.

And how do you know what’s a sin and what isn’t? Answer this question clearly, please: is Moasaic law still to be followed or isn’t it? If it is to be followed, follow all of it. If it’s not to be followed then why quote it?

gobear, what about all the lines some of you trot out to support your pov? Should we consider them any more valid than you consider ours? All we’re going to do is go in circles. I agree with what Reactor is saying here, especially the last statement.

Reactor, yeah apparently I’m wrong about everything, too…

Diogenes, nope not going there anymore. I’ve talked and talked and explained what I believe about it enough and some still don’t get what I’m saying. Why should I continue to rehash it?

No, he means a relationship that gives him love and support, just like he said. Please don’t presume to tell other people what their relationships are based on. We find that offensive around here.

Cite?

Then you need to keep your trap shut about other people’s relationships. From now on, every single time you make a comment about the “sinfulness” of homosexuality, I’m going to remind you that you, yourself, are currently living in sin.

Every single time…

Chip on my shoulder? Because I am angry when you compare my relationship to murder? How silly of me to get upset. :rolleyes:

If I were a murderer, obvioudly my conduct shoudl be reprimanded. But the premise underlying the question is flawed–being gay is not the same as being a murderer.

Then so is your hetero relationship because the only difference between my relationship and yours (if you have one) is the genders of the people involved.

Um, ever hear of shark attacks? Bear maulings? Animals can kill people. What’s the relevance?

Oh horsefeathers. Threatening me with your fundie porn is meaningless.

Wha? I don’t hate God, nor do I hate Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, or the Easter Bunny.

There is no God. There is no heaven, no hell. The supernatural world is just the hopes and fears of humanity writ large. I fear your deity’s judgment about as much as I fear the god Anubis weighing my heart against a feather.

Here’s my question to you: whjy do you worship such an immoral being? The God you worship endorses slavery, killing your children if they sass you, wiping out other tribes if they occupy land you want, the death penalty for blasphemy, and other assorted horrors.

Another question: the same word for abomination is used in reference to eating shellfish as well as homosexual sex, so why do you allow putting an oyster in your mouth but not a dick?

My views are based on reason, your views are mere quotations from Scripture. You have not yet formulated an actual argument , all you do is say, "The Bible sez so. . . " Now that’s fine as a citation of Biblical authority for your views, but merely repeating yourself is not a proper refutation of counterarguments, such as your apparent hypocrisy in exculpating yourself for violating the same Levitical codes.

Mars Horizon…

No man, that’s fine. Any details on what tipped the scales for you?

(I’ll be off to bed soon, but I’ll come back and read)
Diogenes…

“Do you believe in the literal Genesis story of creation? Do you think the sun revolves around the Earth? Do you think the sky is a solid dome? Do you believe that the whole Earth was flooded a few thousand years ago?”

  1. Yes
  2. It doesn’t say that
  3. It doesn’t say that
  4. It doesn’t say that

Do you believe Diogenes asks too many questions?

  1. Yes
    “I won’t even go into all the self-contradictions and inconsistencies.”

Feel free to email them to me.
“In the many instances where scripture is belied by fact, how do you reconcile it? Or do you just stick your fingers in your ears and say “la la la, I can’t hear you?””

Yes, that’s exactly what I do. I also have a big fuzzy pair of earmuffs and stick them over the top of my industrial strength earplugs.

Not.

I don’t do anything, because unlike you, I don’t believe in “…the many instances where scripture is belied by fact…” dumb question meter blows up
“The virgin birth is explained by Islam…”

Oh you mean the “It was a sign.” explanation. Oh yeah, good one that.
“Catholics don’t call salvation a “mystery.””

And that’s funny, because I met one just yesterday who said to me “Salvation is a mystery.” and before that, a bunch of hard-core Catholics who (apart from kissing the Pope’s ring… you know, the one on his hand… these guys loved the Pope and knew the church’s doctrines back to front) said “Salvation is a mystery.” and then “We can’t understand it.” Why do you think I remember it?
“…you are committing a grievous error in your idoltrous worship of Jesus. Aren’t you concerned about this?”

Do I sound worried to you? I’m the one who thinks the Koran is a man-made doccument with pieces taken from the bible (which it is), remember?
“BTW, your comment about the Bible not referring to the Koran is kind of silly since the Koran did not exist when the Bible was written.”

Okay, so it was pointless to make it. So that changes… what?
“Answer this question clearly, please:”

Are you ordering me to give you the answer? What’s so wrong with you that you can’t open up the bible and read for yourself? I don’t know about you, but I dislike fake questioning. I mean, I’ll answer the odd thing here and there, but you make it an artform, to ask a question with no genuine interest.

And I’m sure you’re going to want to say “Answer the question!” (or something along those lines). If I can say “Read the bible, you’ll find the answer there.” then you can know I don’t need to justify my position on this forum now, or ever if I so choose.

gobear…

Good to hear you don’t hate God. Still, you’re an enemy to him by your actions.

“I fear your deity’s judgment about as much as I fear the god Anubis weighing my heart against a feather.”

No kidding. You don’t fear him because you don’t want him to exist, and as long as you keep telling yourself that, you won’t have to. Have a peaceful life. The fright comes afterward.
“whjy do you worship such an immoral being?”

I don’t. You think he is, but I know you have little understanding of the bible, so I’m hardly surprised.
“…the same word for abomination is used in reference to eating shellfish as well as homosexual sex, so why do you allow putting an oyster in your mouth but not a dick?”

Are you trying to win an award for the dumbest question ever? And are we talking about Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, or English? Why do you think? Because God told me, or because there’s a reason behind why you don’t pleasure anyone sexually besides your wife?

Your question takes the cake for the most try-hard attempt to make sence I have ever seen. I mean, I see what you’re getting at, but trying to win a discussion with illogical semantics of a word used (in one language, obviously not all of those used in the bible talking about abomination-asuming you’re correct anyway) is worthy of the captain desperate award.

And no, this is not the same as the murder comment. That wasn’t directed at you anyway (but being so defensive you took it that way) and was about people accepting you no matter what you think, which in practice doesn’t work. No one accepts the murderer. That had nothing to do with being gay.

“I am angry when you compare my relationship to murder?”

Now you know I didn’t.

Look, gobear, you can’t possibly feel about your partner the way a real man feels about his wife, because you’ve obviously bought into “the spirit of antichrist” and are solely engaged in selfishly gratifying your lusts. Because their Inerrant Book tells them that you can’t possibly be someone anything like them. :rolleyes:

Feh.

And, JFTR, I haven’t yet thanked His4Ever for her support and compassion when I and my church were attacked on another board. Of course, there’s a good reason why I haven’t…

Reactor, I’m disappointed. Not only have you completely failed to explain something which I asked courteously for enlightment on, but you’re now playing “la-la-la, I can’t hear you” games. I was under the impression that you were out to defend your viewpoint in an effort to lead others to Christ, as I am.

And it’s always nice to see that you like using a Scriptural exegesis that can be twisted around to support your own warped theology, as you folks are always fond of accusing my people of doing.

Next time either of you attempts to persuade me that evangelical Christians believe in Jesus’s Summary of the Law (AKA the Two Great Commandments) and in the Gospel teachings about how to treat one’s fellow man, remind me to throw this thread directly in your faces as proof that you lie through your teeth.

FWIW, I read the Bible. I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ whose life and message are reported therein. I put my whole faith and trust in Him. And I try to do what He commands – not what some bigoted preacher puts together out of selected passages from the Old Testament and the Epistles twisted to justify hating people in the name of God.

And right about now, I feel like Linda Ronstedt’s one tin soldier.

And I have some words, from Simon, that I sincerely hope speak to your hearts:

“My views are based on reason, your views are mere quotations from Scripture.”

So on one hand we have your brain, versus the possible writing of the living God. Sorry, but I’m not betting on you.
“such as your apparent hypocrisy in exculpating yourself for violating the same Levitical codes.”

I can explain this, OR, you can read the bible and answer this for yourself. If you really want to know, have a look.

Ploycarp…

I’m sorry. Do we know each other? Do you know my heart? Are we good friends?
“Reactor, I’m disappointed.”

Don’t flatter yourself. I’m not here to please you.
“Not only have you completely failed to explain something which I asked courteously for enlightment on”

Sorry- I don’t remember what that was. I have a life outside of this forum you know. If you’d like to know then please email me with the question or post again and I’ll try to catch it this time (obviously it got lost in the back posts somewhere).
“…as you folks are always fond of accusing my people of doing.”

Your people? And who are they exactly?
“And I try to do what He commands – not what some bigoted preacher puts together out of selected passages from the Old Testament and the Epistles twisted to justify hating people in the name of God.”

I’ll ask again, do you know me? Doesn’t the bible say that there are only two who know the hearts of men? (that being God and the man himself) You don’t know me, or how I think, or what I know. You are on very dangerous ground. Tell me how it is you know I hate people.

If your God exists, and if He sends people to Hell to suffer excruciating torture for not kowtowing to Him, then He’s a monster unworthy of worship. I don’t bow down to dictators who employ torture to get their way.

Again with the “you don’t know the Bible” when I just gave you specific instances. Heck, here are the verses:

God being pro-slavery, Leviticus 25:45-46; killing your disobedient children, Lev. 20:9; God commanding genocide, Joshua 6:21, 8:24-26, 10:28-29, 10:32-33, 10:35, 10:37, 10:38, 10:40, 11:8, 11:11, 11:12, 11:14, 11:21; death penalty for blashphemy, Lev. 24:16; and so on. You can wriggle and argue your postion all day, but don’t tell me I don’t know my Bible, pal!

Um, we’re talking Hebrew, the language of the OT. I thought you were a Bible expert and you don’t even know the original languages of the Bible? Hmm.

The word translated as “abomination” in the KJV, to’ebah, in Lev 18:22 is the same word used to prohibit the eating of shellfish in Lev 11: 11-12. So why is one still forbidden and the other is OK? And why is that a “dumb” question?

And you need to work on your reading comprehension. " Because God told me, or because there’s a reason behind why you don’t pleasure anyone sexually besides your wife?" Hel-LO, I’m gay, hence I have no wife. I do, however, have a wonderfully loving and patient male partner.

<quote><B>Reactor</B>
Diogenes…

“Do you believe in the literal Genesis story of creation? Do you think the sun revolves around the Earth? Do you think the sky is a solid dome? Do you believe that the whole Earth was flooded a few thousand years ago?”

  1. Yes
  2. It doesn’t say that
  3. It doesn’t say that
  4. It doesn’t say that

Do you believe Diogenes asks too many questions?</quote>

And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Firmament
(heaven)
1:6
And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
1:7
And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
1:8
And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
1:9
And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
1:10
And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
1:11
And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
1:12
And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
1:13
And the evening and the morning were the third day.
1:14
And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
1:15
And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
1:16
And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
1:17
And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
1:18
And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

Okey, Dokey. Seems pretty straightforward.

7:4
For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.
7:5
And Noah did according unto all that the LORD commanded him.
7:6
And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.
When did Noah
enter the ark?
7:7
And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons’ wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.
7:8
Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth,
7:9
By twos or
by sevens?
There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.
7:10
And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.
7:11
In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
7:12
And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

When did Noah
enter the ark?
7:13
In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah’s wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;
7:14
They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.
7:15
By twos or
by sevens?
And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.
7:16
And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.
7:17
How long did
the flood last?
And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.
7:18
And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.
7:19
And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
7:20
Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
:smack:
Are you going to argue that it wasn’t several thousand years ago?

These things ARE IN THE BIBLE WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT.

They ARE NOT TRUE.
We simply wish to know how you reconcile them

“…or not kowtowing to Him, then He’s a monster unworthy of worship.”

It isn’t for not knowing him.
You don’t know your bible pal. There, I said it :wink: I don’t believe God is pro slavery, but he let it happen. And, he let killing happen, and lots of other nasty things. The point I’m trying to make- God can do whatever he likes. He is God. Read the book of Job if you disagree with me. I’m not going to wiggle and argue all day. He had those things happen, yes. But I believe that God has the right to do what he wants, when he wants to, and how he wants to. To understand how I can think this way, you need to read more about God. That’s why there are stories of events in the bible-- so we can understand.

“I thought you were a Bible expert and you don’t even know the original languages of the Bible? Hmm.”

Oh so I’m a bible expert now? I don’t remember saying this… but thanks! Yes, Hebrew for old. Greek for new. And that’s ancient Hebrew for the old. We only have the new Hebrew translated by the Jews, so… your point no longer makes sence.

It’s a dumb question (and I’m not calling you dumb- the question to me seems dumb) because you don’t take the whole bible in context (that, and the above point). Lust is what we’re talking about. Paul talks about this in Romans 1:26 onwards. You point has no bearing on anything! So what if the word means two different things? The point is the same, and to be understood the same way, even if that was the only scripture in the bible about this issue.

“And you need to work on your reading comprehension.”

I know you’re gay. I was saying in responce that I don’t think putting a man’s genitalia in my mouth is right because (and take note here, I gave you two choices to guess why)…

a) Simply because God told me.

b) There’s a reason why you don’t do that.

Get it?

Anyway, good night. Should be back tomorrow for more abuse :wink:

Reactor, I’m basing my reaction on what you’ve chosen to share here, the only grounds I have or can have to evaluate what you have to say and who the person is behind the words – and what you seem to be doing is taking the same viewpoint as people who use the Bible to condemn their fellow man on the basis of passages selectively extracted from it.

And I agree that the only Person you need answer to is God – but what’s the purpose in your being here? If it’s not to share His word with those who will listen, then what is it? That means, you need to communicate with other people – to engage in dialogue with them, not monologues on what you think that God needs to say to them. Because He will speak in their hearts if you stand back and let Him.

You don’t have all the answers. I don’t have all the answers. He does. It’s as simple as that.

What I’m trying to do is share His love with anyone who will listen. And to do that by being the person who hears what troubles their hearts and shows compassion for them, as Jesus did.

FWIW, I explained in inordinate detail the story behind the question Diogenes asked of His4Ever, in hopes that you, as someone who shares some of her perspective, might be able to explain the distinction that she and others clearly draw. And I specifically asked you to give your viewpoint. Not that you’re obliged to do so, mind – it’s merely a courtesy to respond to questions raised by others specifically at you.

(Bolding names and attributing quotes, by the way, serves much as you suggested earlier – it provides one a way to note quickly what’s been addressed directly to them. It’s considered proper to read the rest of the thread, but to focus on discussions that are directed specifically at yourself.)

I don’t know whether you hate anyone or not – I’d like to think you don’t – but your statements are allying you, for the moment, with people who “stand in the shoes of the Pharisees,” using the words of Scripture to justify their own behavior and condemn the acts of others. Those are not shoes I would care to fill, and I’m merely flagging the problem for your own conscience to deal with.