In some ways Reactor reminds me of a roommate I had in college.
When, one night, he proceeded to explain his take on the bible (which included one phrase I’ll never forget: In a perfect world, without god, women wouldn’t be able to survive. How he came up with that I’ll never know.) he was astonished that I told him I disagreed with everything he’d said.
Believe it or not Reactor, people who don’t believe in the bible or god or Jesus-as-god might have read and even studied the bible (I certainly don’t claim to be an authority myself) and found it to be nothing more than a smattering of (possibly) history combined with a lot of allegory, politicizing and retelling of older myths.
Your attitude as presented in your posts, intentionally or not has been one of intolerance toward any other viewpoint and disrespect toward those who hold those POVs.
I wasn’t able to post this last night before going to sleep; the server timed out on me. Let me try to get it through now.
I do thank you for your answer, Reactor; it’s a lot more coherent and thorough than some of what you’d been posting before.
I take issue with this, though. How is the entire Bible littered with the answers? What do you mean by “things like homosexuality”?
From my (Jewish) perspective, the people who tried to express God’s will as best they could in the Torah seem to be clearly saying, “God doesn’t like things going against the order of nature.” But they, like all human beings, were looking at this through the distorting lens of the social mores of the time. So here and there they confused said social mores with the aforementioned “order of nature”–hence the prohibition against women wearing men’s clothes (and vice versa) and homosexuality.
I don’t intend to hijack this into a thread about the morality of homosexuality as described in the Bible; there’s another thread for that. What I’m trying to show here is that it’s possible to have a differing interpretation of a religious text and still believe in the religion that inspired it.
I’m reminded of something completely different–something William Goldman (I think; it may have been someone else entirely) said about Stephen Sondheim’s Company. He said that it was all about a guy who kept looking for love and intimacy, but his problem was that he was gay and wouldn’t admit it to himself. Now, I’d always interpreted Company to be about a more or less straight (possibly bisexual) guy who had issues with intimacy and commitment; his sexuality had nothing to do with these issues. But for Goldman, it’s about Robert’s repressed homosexuality.
If people can have differing interpretations of a play written three decades ago, how is it impossible for them to have differing interpretations of a collection of books written centuries ago?
Reactor, our problem here may lie in some basic suppositions. Try these questions out, and see if you can grasp my perspective:
To what should one look above all other things for guidance in living ethically?
What did Jesus say were the two most important things to do?
What did He say we ought to do about the sins of others?
How, then, should we behave towards a gay person?
I think you know my answers – if you want any of them spelled out in more detail, just say so, and I’ll be glad to oblige. I very much want to see how you’ll answer the questions – and I hope that we may get beyond the failure to grasp each other’s perspectives that have haunted this exchange.
Reactor, we would find it easier to understand your views if you would tell us what they are instead of saying that they’re in your book.
Your interpretations are not written in the margins of any of my Bibles, which means that telling me to go read them is not going to bring me to any understanding of your individual perspective.
I can only presume that you are unable to grasp that your individual perspective is individual; that would explain why you seem so reluctant to present it.
(If this multiposts, I apologise; I’m getting board errors.)
Wel, Poly, don’t you and His4ever (and me and seige and lib) all belong to the Same church?
The church of poeple who know that Jesus was God and died for our sins?
Just different denominations is all.
I wonder why some pushy Christians assume that non-believers have not read the bible. It’s not a particularly compelling, well-researched, or enthralling book. The Old Testament has some good action scenes, but the New Testament just drags on until they all eat mushrooms or whatever in the last chapter. Numbers? That’s the worst chapter in any book, ever.
But seriously folks. I studied Roman and medieval history in college. I wrote papers on Augustine, Anselm, Abelard, Aquinas. That’s just the As. I used the KJB as a reference book for over two years.
I’m still not religious. A heavy-handed witnesser is the surest way to scare me off for good. Or, what everyone else said in a slightly different way.
I grew up Catholic and I will actually (hold on to your hats, folks) agree with Reactor that Catholicism and Catholics often do not emphasize reading the bible. Personally, I consider this a good thing, as I have rarely seen any good results come of reading the book. Well, I got an A in theology at university. Does that count?
As I get older, I’m losing my faith. I already lost my religion. One of the biggest reasons is the arrogance, the insulting bigotry, of so many “Christians.” Oh, that’s not to say that even arrogant, insulting people can’t be good people, or that they can’t be right. But I find myself less and less willing to associate myself with people of faith.
I think we had already worked these things out for ourselves for the most part. You did not correctly assess what we have already been exposed to.
Others here obviously have better scholarly credentials than I do. But I have been a member of the Christian fellowship for almost sixty years. I became a member of the church fifty years ago. I taught Bible school and Sunday School. I attended church camp each summer for five years before becoming a volunteer church camp counselor for six camps. I served as the President of my Presbyterian Youth Fellowship. I organized a weekend spiritual retreat for 150 people of all ages when I was only eighteen. For the first two years of my college education, I attended a religiously affiliated college where I majored in Christian education. I’ve had many classes in Bible and religion. I’ve forgotten a lot of what I learned, but I haven’t forgotten the basics. The reason that I have forgotten much has nothing to do with a lack of interest or concern. After I switched colleges and graduated with a majors in both English and Speech/Drama, I became a teacher in inner-city schools for the next twenty years as an act of service.
I am a Christian because I believe that Jesus is the son of God and offered himself as a sacrifice so that I might be forgiven for my mistakes. I believe that the greatest thing that I can do to honor God is to learn to love my fellow human beings unconditionally. I’m still working on that one.
I forgave you before you even apologized. I am a Christian. It is required of me. But I have to forgive you again every fifteen minutes or so because I feel anger toward you when I think of some of the things you have said here about both believers and non-believers. (I’m still working on that anger too.)
If you insist upon judging others, please at least consider doing it based upon what Paul described as “the fruits of the spirit.”
One of my strongest beliefs is that God is not a nit-picker. I also believe that God is not only just, but merciful. I cannot imagine Jesus being punitive toward people that he loves so much. I believe that every person is sacred.
*i think everyone needs to step back and pull a polycarp, what he suggested. ok we better now?
I know alot of Catholics that dont know anything about the bible, or are more confused about it then should be. But I also know alot of protistants which are in the same boat. I can see Reactors standpoint as I believe that is the genral thought of most protestants. If its true, well Im not sure. I usually get mixed results when asking that question. All I know is that even if i cant convince you that Christianity is the route to take, I hope that i can show you love. I really do love everyone, even my “enemies”, i thank all of you for your input as it has taught me alot, and if there are any more questions about my op or just about this statement please ask.
Here’s a free clue for you, Reactor. Preaching to the choir is totally different than having an intelligent conversation with your peers. While preschoolers that have been indoctrinated by your church to accept whatever you say might view your teachings as wisdom from on high, grownups who more than likely to have studied the texts being discussed as much as, if not more than, you are not going to roll over so easily. The simplistic “Holier and Smarter Than Thou” attitude coupled with the “Pearls before swine” like comments you like to hand out don’t work worth spit outside of cheap religious tract morality stories.
Likewise, sarcasm when giving an answer may be appropriate at times, but sarcasm instead of an answer says one thing and one thing only.
You don’t have the answers.
