Or you could actually read what I said. I said a bus passenger who is on the bus with the bus driver. It’s not about people who are both driving, which is why I specifically did not use that as an example. I may not drive much, but I did take driver’s ed, and I know about defensive driving.
When you get on a bus, you do not watch the bus driver the entire time. You assume that the bus driver is properly trained. You probably pull out your phone or a book or something. No one blames the passengers if the bus driver gets into an accident.
Similarly, the idea that the people who go in a building are somehow responsible for knowing that the place is not up to the fire safety code is ridiculous. The a priori assumption in all buildings is that they are safe. You do not go and inspect everything every time you go into a building.
This is just victim blaming. It’s a way to reassure yourself that this could never happen to you. But it could. You don’t personally inspect every building you enter for fire safety. That’s just not what normal human beings think about.
A lot depends on what the business license states for use and purpose. If it’s for “warehouse services,” it probably deflected any interest in inspecting it. I’ll bet one wooden nickel it does not say anything like “moderate density art and craft subrentals” that would trigger a hazardous-conditions flag and a greater chance of inspection. We already know it wasn’t zoned or licensed for residential, and probably not for any high-density occupation like mass showings, parties or raves.
In my small town, where I know the Public Safety officer personally, I rented two small existing offices and had to work through a checklist of uses and occupation even though he knows me and what I do, and the offices are perennial rentals. We have budget issues, too.
People who spend most of their time in safe environments tend not to be on their guard. If you have never been in a fire and don’t know anyone who has, you’re not going to be very vigilant in looking for fire hazards. This is one reason that it’s important to enforce safety regulations: it’s asking for trouble to train people that they don’t have to worry about safety and then fail to provide for that safety.
You’re completely right, but I’d add one caveat: it is the responsibility of every person to know where the nearest emergency exit is whenever they are in a building.
I trust that they have them, and that they work, and that they are properly marked with lights with battery backup, and battery powered emergency lighting.
In a movie theater, they are glowing in the corner. It’s obvious. But WalMart? Does you really need to keep a constant vigil on which exit is closest? And adjust as you shop? Or can you be fine in trusting that you can rely on proper safety measures to work once the shit starts going down?
And I ask as someone that always checks the nearest emergency exit when I fly, down to remembering how many seats between it and me, so I can count by feel in the dark or smoke. But a plane is not a store.
Governments are prisoners to procedure. Especially when there is no obvious urgency, and the only urgency here was revealed largely by hindsight.
I see this happening in front of my eyes. We have a hoarder in our town who has filled several buildings with flammable debris – hundreds of sheets of plywood, old tires, bicycles, etc., etc., even some farm animals (other than the rats, of course). The Town Chairman organized a legal inspection party with a warrant, and included the fire chief, the health officer, and an animal control officer to tour the property; we even videorecorded the tour. If the Chairman was a dictator, he’d bulldoze the place flat in a day, but since he has to follow legal procedures, the property still stands, cluttered and unaltered, years later. It would be merciful it would catch fire and burn down all by itself and it probably will.
In the case of the Ghost Ship, the way out was the same way they came in. I doubt that most of the people who died there didn’t know where the exit was. The problem was that they couldn’t get to it. Either they were trapped upstairs, or they couldn’t find the exit due to the smoke, lack of light and the maze-like environment.
No, it’s not too much to ask people to know how to get out. Even in a big store (even Ikea), it’s not hard to know which way to go, because exits are easy to find in a store that meets code.
It’s no different than watching the traffic light: when you’re walking along a street, you watch the lights. When you’re in a building, you watch for exit signs.
And that was the clue that the space was not safe. We can’t know if a building meets fire code. We have to trust the venue on that. But we can look around to see where we are and how to get out.
Suppose you start going into a bus and see the bus driver is obviously drunk. What would do you do? This is exactly the same situation when you go into the Ghostship and see this crazy stairway to the second floor. In both situations a reasonable person is going to say this isn’t safe; I am not going up.
No, the a priori assumption is not that all buildings are safe: it depends on the type of building. Even those of us who have never been to a rave or similar event but read a few articles know that they are held in marginal structures, or structures like warehouses not built for large assemblies or vacant structures… Don’t you think the people going to these events know the same? It’s obvious these types of structures could well not meet normal fire safety standards.
Yes. Only an amazingly naive person could look at a stairway built partially of old pallets and say “Wow, it’s cool that the city now approves of funky, artistic stairs and no longer insists on those old, boring, wide & sturdy versions.”
One of the survivors said he grabbed a fire extinguisher and tried to use it but it didn’t work, which has me wondering if it was part of an art exhibit.
How many people in their late teens and early twenties do you imagine ever give a moment’s thought to fire safety? Or even people outside of that age bracket?
Ever been in a hotel when the fire alarm gets pulled? I’ve been through a couple of them. Most people choose not to evacuate, especially if it’s a winter night; if they care at all, they might call down to the front desk to ask whether it’s a real fire or not.
Similarly, most rave attendees are not going to look at the situation and think, “hm, in the event of a fire, that stack of pallets will make it difficult to evacuate the 150 people that are up in the loft before a couple dozen of them (possibly including me) succumb to smoke and flames, and there clearly aren’t enough ground-floor exits for them and the other 150 people on the ground floor.”
Even in a building that has enough fire exits, people still don’t do fire safety right. During the Station Nightclub fire in 2003, there were three good exits away from the stage (where the fire started). But since virtually everyone came in through the front door, that’s where virtually everyone tried to leave, quickly resulting in a massive mound of people that blocked egress for everyone behind them.
Generally speaking, people don’t explicitly assume buildings are safe; they don’t even think about it.
Because the vast majority of people don’t go to things that look like death traps. When I go to a restaurant or a movie theater I note the exits, the emergency lighting, and the signs. Why? Because I have kids and a self and if something happens I want to know where to go.
I also note the bathroom locations.
When I’m at a national park or state park and there are fences or walkways I check to see state of repair and gaps because a young child can squeeze through some small stuff and they are impulsive.
I’m not saying inspect everything like a professional but if you are going to a rave in a facility that probably doesn’t have security, permits, licenses, or insurance for such an event don’t you think it may be probable that other short cuts are taken?
Such as lack of proper emergency lighting and signs? Fire alarms or suppression? Clearly marked exits? One dropped cigarette and that place could have burned down.
This right here.
I feel badly for the people who died in there, and for those adult screw ups the almedas’ kids
27 years ago I was a teen on the Chicagoland rave scene. (this was before people were hosting parties in strip malls, we were breaking into the old ACME Factory(yes there really is one) factory in Back of the Yards/ New City, and setting up a buddy to spin at the top of a quarter pipe we had built through the middle of the Tracks that ran through the building on the dock.
This we thought was sketchy as fuck. even then we busted open chains that were on the doors to make sure we had exits. I was like 16, our biggest worry was 9th district coming down on us, and only having the river behind the place should we try to unass it.
Then I look at “the ghostship” If I walked into that place I probably would have walked right back out even as a kid tripping balls.
Arfurvirus, interesting. I’m trying to picture the scene you described, in Chicago 27 years ago. I think I get “spin” (a DJ, playing records, hooked up to amplifiers?), but I’m having trouble with “quarter pipe” (I picture a concave surface for skateboarding, but that wouldn’t work well as a dance floor).
And octopus, I’ll try to follow your example and notice the exit locations when I enter a large room with lots of people – especially when I’m with my child.
No, I wouldn’t, because I would never think to even check the bus driver to see if he was drunk, and I bet you wouldn’t either. I couldn’t tell you what the bus driver even looks on any bus I’ve ever been on.
Human beings just do not behave the way you keep demanding these guys should have. If the building looks like it’s standing up, and everyone else is going in, the vast, vast majority of people will think it is safe.
I can name time after time where I saw something that I inititially thought looked dangerous, but saw other people doing with no ill effect and thus assumed it was safe. Roller coasters, bonfires on grass, barn swings, etc.
That’s just how we work. If everyone else is okay doing it, we assume it’s safe.
We just like to tell ourselves that we would never be so “stupid” as to do these unsafe things. But it’s not true. Human beings are absolutely lousy with evaluating risk.
And it’s so important to know this that I’m responding to this months later.
You can smell if a bus driver is drunk. And we are responsible for our general safety. If you choose to live your life ostrich style, then you must own the bad consequences that will follow.
