The Great Ongoing Guitar Thread

[Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela]

Originally posted by E-Sabbath

In other news, anyone got any good stretching exercises to do when not at a guitar? The neck is wider, so I don’t fat-finger the strings as much. On the other hand, the neck is wider, and a little longer, and the frets are just a skoosh farther apart.

Originally posted by WordMan
I avoid stretching and strengthening exercises for my fingers like the plague - they are a recipe for tendon, muscle and joint problems. Find scale and chords that you like and that involve wide spacings. Do them one. million. times. Repeat.

Humbly, respectfully and possibly for the first time ever, I’m not in complete agreement with you, WordMan. I hope it doesn’t lead to pistols at dawn.

Here’s where I’m in agreement - this is a question for your teacher (There is a teacher involved in here somewhere, isn’t there?), your massage therapist or your physiotherapist. Someone trained who understands that musicians are highly specialized, hyper-coordinated athletes who have developed a level of dexterity mere mortals only dream of. Someone who gets that 90% of what you do as a musician involves tendons and ligaments, which behave in a different manner than muscles.

It isn’t a question that is best asked on the internet. I’m a nice guy, and my heart is pure, most of the time, but I can’t see your hands from here. You’re also very nice, and I’m sure your heart is pure, too, but I have no idea what your work habits are like and whether you are the type of person who will take my most ergonomically sound advice and do a Schumann on yourself. So I’m going to confine myself to the most general of advice and point you toward a couple of things but I’d be ever so much happier if you saw a living, breathing, trained human who is physically present, preferrabley within arm’s reach, if you really want to stretch things.

Where we’re not in accord, WordMan, is in your thinking that stretches are a recipe for tendon, muscle and joint problems. Some of them are, but some of them are meant to relax a body part that’s working at its maximum, and balancing the stress of practice with some gentle treatment is a good idea.

Also, I have to caution any musician who uses practice alone to improve the condition of his hands - if I may be permitted to describe musicians as athletes (a controversial metaphor, as many musicians and teachers immediately react in a negative way to that association.), musicians have a poor track record in terms of sticking to a fixed number of reps and then leaving it for the day. Indeed, many musicians use a formula that roughly corresponds to “I’ll keep doing it until I get it right.”, which can lead to real problems.

The other thing about repetition without supervision is this - what if there’s a more ergonomic way to do the riff that the student hasn’t found yet? Even assuming that it’s the ideal fingering for the student*, ten minutes of the teacher saying

‘the pinky needs the most attention in this passage. Place the pinky first, balance the pinky by placing the thumb directly on the other side of the neck, then arrange the other fingers in such a way that the pinky is undisturbed. Then play the passage. Stop. Wait. Replay the passage in your mind’s ear. Stop. Place the pinky first, balance the pinky by placing the thumb… etc.’

makes a tremendous difference to what the student is practicing. It’s a different approach to repetition.

Repetition of an ergonomically unsound approach leads to problems. Ten repetitions of an ergonomically sound approach does more benefit than a hundred repetitions of an unsound approach. An unsound approach can do more harm than good. How can you tell if you’re using a sound or an unsound approach? In my opinion, the best way is with a teacher. A massage therapist or physiotherapist can tell if your hands are being inefficiently used from how it ‘feels’ to them, but I find it’s better to use your hands efficiently from the get-go.

And with that, I’ve used my hour of computer time for a Sunday day time…

*Please, pardon my bolding, but this is a subject which makes me cranky - I don’t give a sh!t how Jimmy Page played it! Did you chop his hands off and transplant them on the ends of your arms? No? Then let’s find what’s best for your hands, even if it means playing it in a different place than you saw on the YouTube video. Do you think Jimmy Page would slavishly copy the way another guitarist plays a lick, or do you think he’d find the easiest possible way to do the same thing? The way that suited his hands best? I submit that he’d find the easiest way for his hands. If I ever get the privilege of speaking to him face to face, I promise I will ask him.

[SteveG1]

@Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela

The other thing about repetition without supervision is this - what if there’s a more ergonomic way to do the riff that the student hasn’t found yet? Even assuming that it’s the ideal fingering for the student*, ten minutes of the teacher saying … *Please, pardon my bolding, but this is a subject which makes me cranky - I don’t give a sh!t how Jimmy Page played it! Did you chop his hands off and transplant them on the ends of your arms? No? Then let’s find what’s best for your hands, even if it means playing it in a different place than you saw on the YouTube video. Do you think Jimmy Page would slavishly copy the way another guitarist plays a lick, or do you think he’d find the easiest possible way to do the same thing? The way that suited his hands best?

I have long, skinny fingers. I have one hell of a reach compared to some people. And you know what? If I have to strain to reach, that means one thing, given my long fingers - I’m doing it wrong. Example: The intro for the Police song Message in a Bottle. This intro, the way I found it tabbed on the web is difficult for me. It calls for long long stretchy reaches. I know that even with my long fingers, even on the Les Paul, I have problems with it. Therefore I know someone else with smaller hands, on a guitar with a thicker neck and longer scale may well find it impossible.

They will have to do it differently, or not at all.

[WordMan]

Le Ministre - we’re good. What you describe is a thoughtful investigation of what a musician can do if they consult with the appropriate guidance. If that can happen, there is a lot of room for improvement. If some shmo - and by shmo I mean me - wanders down to a Guitar Center and buys the lastest squeeze-o-matic exerciser because Synestyr Gates endorsed it? Then I have an issue.

Also, I have to support your comments on repetition and practice. You are far more formally trained, than I, sir, and I respect your approach to the discipline. As I say in yoga: breath. form. depth. Too many reps (depth) done with poor form is a recipe for damage. And breath? Well, that is the soul of music.

**SteveG1 **- as for Message in a Bottle, well, that’s Mr. Summers for you. He geeks out on jazz voicings that require a stretch - it’s part of his appeal. It really is just an expansion of a Chuck Berry A-form barre chord boogie chug, but you have to do that little climb (I swear that makes sense). When I play it - especially getting all Secret Policeman’s like Sting on acoustic - I hop the form, meaning: I start with my index at 2nd string, 4th fret, hop to fifth string, 6th fret and 4th string, 8th fret with my middle and pinky, but easing up on the strings once I fret and pick them - they don’t need to sustain, and by relaxing my fingers I can make the stretch more easily. By then I am releasing the 2nd string and can hit it open to begin the next chord with the same picking sequence. Does that help?

And, by the way, since the Yankees are rained out and I have a bit of time - let’s discuss pickups, tone and music genre. If you all think this is obvious or have a different POV, please speak up - it adds to the conversation.

Okay - so what type of music are you playing? Depending on the answer, there are varying degrees of clean-vs.-crunchy you are looking for in your tone - even if you aren’t aware of it. So - you like jazz, say, like Joe Pass or George Benson? That is a very clean tone - warm, full and round. It turns out that what you really like is the Big Fundamental - the harmonic overtones of the note take a backseat to the big note you are fretting on the neck of the guitar. By choosing the neck pickup - or by playing a jazz guitar which only has a neck pickup - you are exploiting the physics of the string. When you pick a string it vibrates - and the most travel that the string experiences is at the precise middle of the string, where it has the most room. That means that the closer to the middle of the string, the more likely that the volume of the main, picked note will be loudest because that is where that main note gets the most oomph. If, however, you take a sample of the same string much closer to the bridge, then the string will be traveling less, the volume of the main note will be less and the volume of the harmonics will be relatively louder.

Now, if you are playing rock music, you want the amp to have a lot of harmonics to work with - they are the components of the note that the amp exploits as it overdrives.

My point to all this: there is a reason certain pickup locations tend to work best for certain types of music. You just have to listen hard and hear how much that music relies on the main note vs. the harmonic overtones. All part of training your ear…

[WordMan]

@WordMan

So - you like jazz, say, like Joe Pass or George Benson? That is a very clean tone - warm, full and round. It turns out that what you really like is the Big Fundamental - the harmonic overtones of the note take a backseat to the big note you are fretting on the neck of the guitar.

…and if you think about it, this makes sense - you want the note’s fundamental tone to sound because if you are playing jazz, you are stacking up harmonically complex notes - you have enough harmonics rubbing up against each other already. Whereas if you are playing blues and rock, the chords are simply harmonically and can handle a lot of overtones…

[LawMonkey]

WordMan–thanks for the advice re: hybrid picking. I don’t think I’ve really sat down and taken a look at what Peyton does, figuring it’s outta my league for now anyway. In general, I still feel like I need more structure than just going to youtube and finding stuff for particular techniques or songs. May just be how I’m wired, may be a side effect of my previous musical instruction, which was relatively formal, with violin. (Which I kinda wish I could take up again… but anyway.) For now, I grabbed one of the Hal Leonard books–I happened to be near the guitar store over the weekend.

Sadly, I’m still without an acoustic. Turns out I won’t be starting my real job until quite a bit later than I’d thought, so money’s a little tight and I’m looking for something as a stopgap. Once I’ve got that figured out, maybe I can find something…

[LawMonkey]

oops!

[WordMan]

@LawMonkey

WordMan–thanks for the advice re: hybrid picking. I don’t think I’ve really sat down and taken a look at what Peyton does, figuring it’s outta my league for now anyway. In general, I still feel like I need more structure than just going to youtube and finding stuff for particular techniques or songs. May just be how I’m wired, may be a side effect of my previous musical instruction, which was relatively formal, with violin. (Which I kinda wish I could take up again… but anyway.) For now, I grabbed one of the Hal Leonard books–I happened to be near the guitar store over the weekend.

Sadly, I’m still without an acoustic. Turns out I won’t be starting my real job until quite a bit later than I’d thought, so money’s a little tight and I’m looking for something as a stopgap. Once I’ve got that figured out, maybe I can find something…

Ah - got it. Look for folks like **Le Ministre **to chime in - folks with schoolin’

[SteveG1]

@WordMan

**SteveG1 **- as for Message in a Bottle, well, that’s Mr. Summers for you. He geeks out on jazz voicings that require a stretch - it’s part of his appeal. It really is just an expansion of a Chuck Berry A-form barre chord boogie chug, but you have to do that little climb (I swear that makes sense). When I play it - especially getting all Secret Policeman’s like Sting on acoustic - I hop the form, meaning: I start with my index at 2nd string, 4th fret, hop to fifth string, 6th fret and 4th string, 8th fret with my middle and pinky, but easing up on the strings once I fret and pick them - they don’t need to sustain, and by relaxing my fingers I can make the stretch more easily. By then I am releasing the 2nd string and can hit it open to begin the next chord with the same picking sequence. Does that help?

I will see. I’ve been doing it with all the notes being held. That gives an idea what sort of reach I have but it isn’t comfortable.

@WordMan

And, by the way, since the Yankees are rained out and I have a bit of time - let’s discuss pickups, tone and music genre. If you all think this is obvious or have a different POV, please speak up - it adds to the conversation.

Okay - so what type of music are you playing? Depending on the answer, there are varying degrees of clean-vs.-crunchy you are looking for in your tone - even if you aren’t aware of it. So - you like jazz, say, like Joe Pass or George Benson? That is a very clean tone - warm, full and round. It turns out that what you really like is the Big Fundamental - the harmonic overtones of the note take a backseat to the big note you are fretting on the neck of the guitar. By choosing the neck pickup - or by playing a jazz guitar which only has a neck pickup - you are exploiting the physics of the string. When you pick a string it vibrates - and the most travel that the string experiences is at the precise middle of the string, where it has the most room. That means that the closer to the middle of the string, the more likely that the volume of the main, picked note will be loudest because that is where that main note gets the most oomph.

I’ve ben working on finger picking jazz - Laurindo Almeida arrangements. Lara’s Theme (Doctor Zhivago), Somewhere Over The Rainbow, Green Leaves Of Summer, Ebb Tide. I guess you would say Laurindo Almeida, Earl Klugh, Tommy Emmanuel style playing. So I use the neck pickup for those and want it “clean” as possible.

@WordMan

If, however, you take a sample of the same string much closer to the bridge, then the string will be traveling less, the volume of the main note will be less and the volume of the harmonics will be relatively louder.

Now, if you are playing rock music, you want the amp to have a lot of harmonics to work with - they are the components of the note that the amp exploits as it overdrives.

My point to all this: there is a reason certain pickup locations tend to work best for certain types of music. You just have to listen hard and hear how much that music relies on the main note vs. the harmonic overtones. All part of training your ear…

For rock where you want the twang or the pinch harmonics (the squealies), or simply the harmonic rich sound, I would use the bridge pickup. You can’t get the growl without the harmonics.

[Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela]

For what it’s worth, I remember cheating and doing ‘Message in a Bottle’ in a drop ‘D’, and starting in a 2-string barre at the 9th fret of the sixth string, (Is that the right key? I think so…) so that first perfect fifth was always on the same fret. I haven’t played that one in about ten years…

[Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela]

Too late for the edit window - make that tenth fret…

[WordMan]

@Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela

For what it’s worth, I remember cheating and doing ‘Message in a Bottle’ in a drop ‘D’, and starting in a 2-string barre at the 9th fret of the sixth string, (Is that the right key? I think so…) so that first perfect fifth was always on the same fret. I haven’t played that one in about ten years…

Whichever fret, I get your picture.

And SteveG1, one last point about Message: it is a bit of a stretch, especially at first, but over time should become no big deal. I hold that form easily now - there’s a Foo Fighters song (“remember not to stop when I say When” - is that Everlong?) which uses it and appears to just grab the form and move it up and down the neck. And Dirty White Boy, by Foreigner (guilty pleasure alert - really a silly song, but fun to play and a high school memory) - should be in Open G (sounds great that way) but if you play it standard, uses that same form and you want to hold it all down, chugging it Chuck Berry style, but hitting the higher string with your pinky when you bounce…

[E-Sabbath]

A thread in which we learn, Y Kant Tori Read sheet music. But Sam Stone can and is amazed other people can’t.

Also, the subject of gearhead versus other guitar magazines show up. Which is a good question. What are good guitar magazines these days? What are these magazines Sam lists that are full of musical theory?

In other, vaugely related news, my latest How To book is amazingly helpful. By Rod Fogg, it’s very well laid out. But, like every other book, the musical examples are never just ‘guitar + clean amp.’ I’m going to throw one or two of the MP3s up here, because I’m curious how certain sounds are created, and they really are good examples of the pure sound.

Anyone got a good place to upload individual MP3s so they can be heard? Do I have to convert them to video and youtube 'em?

(This is, of course, for educational purposes only. Well, and for showing off individual recordings once I get that working.)

[WordMan]

@E-Sabbath

Also, the subject of gearhead versus other guitar magazines show up. Which is a good question. What are good guitar magazines these days? What are these magazines Sam lists that are full of musical theory?

• I recently subscribed to **Premier Guitar **- seems like a somewhat recent mag with solid reviews - a bit less diplomatic vs. Guitar Player, which seems a bit more of a shill for the manufacturers.

• **Vintage Guitar **is a reference on collectible guitars - but the articles are crap so don’t look at it for that…

• **Fretboard Journal **- turned onto by Doper **Crotalus **- is a beautiful, high-end quality mag with well-written articles on instruments, makers and players. It is what Guitar Aficionado aspires to be.

• **Guitar Aficionado **is for douchebags - I have bought a copy or two when the guitar porn photos are particularly good, but want to wash my hands afterwards. As someone squarely in their target demo, I hate what it stands for.

-** The Tonequest Report **is probably the most respected gear review magazine. Very well written - I subscribe off and on; it is VERY G.A.S. inducing.

I don’t pay much attention to the sheet music mags…

[squeegee]

@WordMan

Guitar Player, which seems a bit more of a shill for the manufacturers.

Guitar Player was the mag I was thinking of in that other thread. I haven’t picked one up lately, but it can seem like heavy shilling. There’s been gems in it, but it’s often been weighted more toward knee-pad interviews, gear and ads.

[E-Sabbath]

So, which of these would be the ‘filled with sheet music and theory’ thing Sam’s talking about?
Edit: Mebbe I wanna mock Sam a little, but mostly I figure reading random articles on music theory and playing random sheet music is probably a good idea.

[squeegee]

@E-Sabbath

So, which of these would be the ‘filled with sheet music and theory’ thing Sam’s talking about?
Edit: Mebbe I wanna mock Sam a little, but mostly I figure reading random articles on music theory and playing random sheet music is probably a good idea.

I may have come off mocking, more so than I intended - I was going for “chiding” at worst and clearly missed that mark. Sam posted a civil reply and good for him, and I regret my initial post and said so. I am also interested in hearing more, as I’m curious – I don’t claim to know everything out in the guitar-oriented music press.

[WordMan]

@E-Sabbath

So, which of these would be the ‘filled with sheet music and theory’ thing Sam’s talking about?

Most mags like Guitar Player and Premier Guitar have columns, but when I show up at an airport or a Borders to check out guitar mags, there are a bunch like Guitar World or others (I can never remember the names) that are thicker and have pages printed on a cheaper newsprint paper that are loaded with sheet music. Many are themed, so that a given issue appears to be Iron Maiden Monthly or All the Aerosmith You’ll Ever Need to Know!!

I am a bit tongue-in-cheek about how they market themselves, but if I was a sheet-music guy, I would be all over them - they appear to be pretty useful content-wise…

[squeegee]

@WordMan

Most mags like Guitar Player and Premier Guitar have columns, but when I show up at an airport or a Borders to check out guitar mags, there are a bunch like Guitar World or others (I can never remember the names) that are thicker and have pages printed on a cheaper newsprint paper that are loaded with sheet music. Many are themed, so that a given issue appears to be Iron Maiden Monthly or All the Aerosmith You’ll Ever Need to Know!!

I am a bit tongue-in-cheek about how they market themselves, but if I was a sheet-music guy, I would be all over them - they appear to be pretty useful content-wise…

Huh, that is different material than I’d seen out there before. I should pick a couple up and see if the notation is close to reality – I’m pretty good at noodling out guitar solos by ear, so I could compare my interpretation vs the same solo in one of those those mags and see if its close. If its spot-on, I’d be pretty impressed, no snark intended. That’d be a huge step up from rock notation I’ve seen. I can’t sight-read a solo, but I can certainly puzzle my way through it in slo-mo.

They actually sell this stuff in airports? Boggle.

[WordMan]

By the way - I can’t recall if I have mentioned this book on the SDMB - but if you are into classical guitar, lessons-based learning or just the discipline of investing time to perfect your craft, I recommend the book Practicing (Amazon link). I am not giving anything away to say that it is about a classically-trained guitarist who loses his way in becoming a professional - the book picks up when he is returning to the instrument after a decade away.

What is wonderful about the book is how immersive it is in its description of the ritual of daily practice. I suspect that you will find something in it to relate to even if you don’t play classical (I don’t and I did…).

ETA: squeegee, I am not their targeted demo, in that I don’t look for exactitude, let alone sheet music (;)) but they seem okay. Find a Borders or someplace with a broad magazine selection and see what’s there…

[WordMan]

Irrelevant hijack - hey E-Sabs, have you noticed that your humble little GOGT is getting scary-close to 100,000 views? Clearly it is getting more reads than posts - join the conversation folks!