Guitar for beginner - advice needed

Cafe Society
1

Not sure if this is Cafe Society or GQ, but given I’m asking for advice, I’ll go with GQ.

If you want the TL: DR version, skip down a bit.

A couple months ago, I decided I needed a project. I thought a few days, then remembered a decade back, in need of a similar project, I got into airguns, built and modded a couple, and rehaped & refinished a stock. As it turns out, I never used the airguns all that much, but I enjoyed the putting them together, modding them, and particularly the stock work. All-in-all, a successful bit of hobby/fun/time-wasting.

I thought I might like to do something with wood again, but it would have to be small-ish, and I would prefer it to be useful, because that helps make it interesting to me. I chanced upon someone on the internet who built a guitar from a kit, and instantly, I wanted to do it. I always wanted to learn guitar, and even if I failed to learn, hey, I made a guitar!

After a week or two looking at the various kits, reviews, Youtube vids, the price of one worth putting together kept escalating. $99, $129, $159, $250, $300, $600 holy crap! Just getting an unfinished guitar body routed out with a mostly-finished neck & head drilled for tuners, that all fit together and wasn’t complete crap, cost more than a decent guitar. I could’ve gone hard-core and got slabs of wood to work with, but I’m not really set up for that much of a project. This review pretty much killed the idea of a kit for me. Shimming and delamination in a kit that cost $250, coupled with a veneer so thin that was in danger of being sanded off if you wanted to do a sunburst, well, that’s that. Pity. Would’ve been a blast.

TL: DR

Still, the idea of picking up a guitar remained. Over the weeks, I kept reading - reviews, instructional resources, etc. Thought I might get a Les Paul knockoff (an Agile, perhaps) but then again, maybe not. Should I get a Strat? Hmm. . .

Found out about HSS Strats and thought that might be a fun compromise for a first guitar. I’ve given it a fair amount of thought, but I just can’t decide what sound I want. I think it might develop as I learn, and I won’t really know until I work it out. I’m a classic rock fan, if that helps any. 1960’s, '70’s, early '80’s.

The Yamaha 112j has some good reviews, but I’ve recently focused on the Squier Bullet. Supposedly it’s improved over the past few years (no longer plywood, but basswood, for example - cripes, a PLYWOOD guitar? Even I wouldn’t want that.), and the Affinity doesn’t offer that much over the Bullet these days.

I’m going to buy new. I checked out the local pawn shop, and they had a Fender Mustang I amp for $149 which I can buy that new from several places online for $99 shipped. That’s not a starting place for bargaining, that’s a ripoff. Besides, I don’t want to buy another person’s cast-off that might have been mistreated. It’s a low-end guitar, not a vintage, so it might not have received a lot of love.

So here’s where you gearheads come in. I’ve been reading your epic guitar thread in CS, so I shudder at what your thoughts on this cheap equipment will be. Nonetheless, I’m asking: Thoughts, opinions? How tragic a mistake is this, and what else do you recommend instead? Bear in mind that price is VERY MUCH a factor. The Bullet’s price is very nice, and will help me afford an amp (currently thinking the Fender Mustang I). I realize that I may find a part or two I’d like to replace as I go - the tuners, the nut, the pots, the. . .everything :slight_smile: , but small upgrades along the way will be easier to absorb, and hey, suddenly I’m back to the kit guitar again!

2

Go for it! Check out posts in that Great Ongoing Guitar Thread from E-Sabbath and squeegee - they talk about Xaviere guitars the get online, at inventory clearance sales for maybe $140. I got one from E-Sabs and gave it to my son; it is a solid player - great pickups.

In other words, no worries on the price point; ask questions and find what works.

3

I just want to say that for an electric guitar, I wouldn’t worry about the materials at all; it’s not like an acoustic.

Behold, the concrete guitar:

4

I would disagree with that.

Some of it depends on what kind of music you play. A guitar with heavy effects and distortion is only going to hear the effects and distortion. But if you don’t have the thing distorted to hell and back then the materials do matter. A plywood guitar is going to have a crappy sustain and will have a bit of a flat, dead sound. The flat sound part probably won’t be all that noticeable to an absolute beginner but someone with a good ear for music will be able to hear the difference. I will admit that it’s not as pronounced of a difference as what you get with an acoustic but there is a difference.

Anything you can get for $100 or less is going to be ok for a beginner but that’s about it. If you want the most bang for your buck your best bet is a used guitar, but then you really have to know what you are looking for.

Buying a guitar in parts probably won’t save you much money because guitars are assembled by dirt cheap foreign labor. Personally I think it’s worth a little more though just because you can customize it exactly the way you want and you also get the cool factor of being able to tell people that you made it.

If you want to go a step further, buy the neck and all of the parts but make your own body. The body isn’t that difficult to make and you can really let your creativity run wild without adding a lot to the cost.

5

ANNND it appears I chose poorly, as we’re now in CS. Probably more traffic here anyway :slight_smile:

I’ll have to check back at the Xaviere website often to see if they have any more clearance deals. Wonder if they have HSS setups.

Yeah, I’ve seen that. Interesting, isn’t it? I’m new to all this, but I’ve seen some passionate pros/cons on materials, and I’m not getting into that. :slight_smile: What I can afford is what I can afford, and because of that, much of that argument won’t apply to me anyway. I just want something that won’t fall apart, isn’t plywood, and is playable enough that it won’t turn me away from learning.

Saw that coming :smiley:

Ack, I’mma gonna get whiplash from changing directions! I think, barring an awesome deal on a vouched-for kit, that ship has sailed. A partscaster sounds like a hoot, but will be pricy, even to get something in the quality range of a Bullet. Spending more will no doubt yield some great results, but, you know, money. Figure if I can get a decent starter platform with usable hardware, I can change out bits here and there as I find the need and money.

That’s what I thought, so I thought I’d save money and put together a kit. Turned out the kits were more expensive and lesser quality than guitars in the $130 range. Whether that says more about the guitars or kits, I can’t say.

Still, some folks are posting surprisingly positive reactions to the Bullets made in recent years, and they claim it compares favorably to more expensive guitars they own. It’s possible there’s a ton of posers out there looking to brag on their new cheap guitar; again, I can’t say. I’m new to all this, so I can’t take a position - just do a lot of reading, field opinions, and try to get it all to congeal into a decision.
Thanks to those who replied. I look forward to more.

6

I haven’t played a Bullet, but I have played some Squiers that I thought were not terrible. If I get out to GC in the next few days, I’ll pick up a Bullet and see what I think and report back. I’m in the market for a pricey Strat, so the contrast with an el cheapo one will be interesting.

I’ll definitely give GuitarFetish (aka GFS aka “Xaviere”) a plug in that price range. They seem to make amazingly good guitars for the money. E-Sabbath bought two of this style guitar (basically a Fender Jazzmaster body with telecaster-style hardware) and was really happy with both. I got their Les Paul Special clone on clearance for $135 (normal price is around $200), and I like it it a lot, very solid instrument. GuitarFetish seems to be tuning their product line, and has literally nothing on clearance, which is unusual for them; they usually have at least a few blemished instruments marked down, which is how I got my $135 guitar. The blemish on mine was the logo on the headstock had a missing letter and the binding on the side of the neck a couple of bad spots, no biggee. I’m not sure I’d wait for a clearance item; if you pay $200ish bucks to them you’re going to get a servicable guitar, probably with some very fixable issues (more on that below), but I think the foundation will be solid.

Keep in mind that guitars in this price range are going to have issues, and will come setup badly, and you’ll need a tech to make some of that right, or you’ll need to learn how to do it yourself. Setting up the guitar yourself is an improbable task for someone who does know how to play even a little, so you should factor that into your pricing.

What kind of issues might you expect on a cheap guitar? Here’s an incomplete list:

[ul][li]Obviously the action (string height from the fretboard) may be poor/too high. This is fixable but a little complex on a “strat” like you’re looking at.[/li]
[li]Crap tuning keys that are jerky or wobbly, and can make the guitar a pain to tune and impossible to stay in tune. You can swap out the tuners with a better quality set later.[/li]
[li]Frets. [list][]The frets may be uneven, leading to buzzing or worse in some positions. You can’t fix this easily, you’d need someone to dress the frets for you. []On some cheap guitars, you also see issues with the fret edges not being dressed properly (or at all) and there will be sharp edges along the sides of the fingerboard. Just slightly sharp fret edges can be fixed with some gentle polishing with steel wool; I had to do this on my GFS. Anything worse would require someone with skill to fix it.[/ul][/li]
[li]Pickups. You can expect the pickups on a cheap guitar to be, well, crap. An exception is Guitar Fetish; they make their own pickups and they range from just okay to quite good.[/li]
[li]The wiring. These things are usually wired poorly using poor components and completely unshielded. You may need to rewire the guitar completely and add shielding to reduce hum. Single coil pickups will hum a little anyway, but in a controllable way. Unshielded guitars with any sort of pickups will hum a lot. I had to rewire and shield my GFS Les Paul immediately, but now its fine.[/li][/list]

Cheap guitars also tend to have very uneven quality. Play several and pick the one that feels the most solid. When you shop, plug the instrument into a clean amp, no effects/reverb/echo/whatever. You want to hear the guitar, not the amp and a bunch of effects. Play every note on every fret, looking for buzzing frets, dead spots, or just general unplayability. Use all the pickup switch positions, make sure they work, and listen for unacceptable hum. As I said, a strat with single coils will hum but not objectionably.

What kind of material do you see yourself wanting to play?

7

Cool. I’ve been thinking pretty hard on an HSS Bullet for awhile. I’ll talk more about that below. If you look at the Bullets, the serial numbers, or at least the letters at the beginning, they supposedly tell you the place of manufacture, and some are better than others. The current internet groupthink is that the quality is as follows:
COB > COS > CY.

I’ll keep checking there for deals, I’m all for that. I’ve heard where people have picked up new Bullets for under $100, for example. Just haven’t found a deal for myself yet.

Yeah, I know issues may crop up. I’m not afraid to swap out parts, and probably will as time goes on. Tuners are a concern - if they won’t work properly, that’s not something you can overlook. I already have a source for suitable replacements lined up if/when necessary(assuming I get the Bullet). Action can be fixed as you said, and I’ll have to learn about it sooner or later. Cheap pickups can be tolerated until I can afford a replacement, as long as they work. I’m no stranger to a soldering iron. The only thing I fear doing myself would be messing about with the frets.

That’s the question, isn’t it? I mentioned in my OP that I favor classic rock, but that’s a wide range, from Gilmour to Hendrix to Neil Young to EVH to SRV and so on. I also favor the blues, particularly Chicago blues. The short answer is, I don’t know. It all sounds great to me, and calls to me in different moments. At times the clean sound of a Gilmour solo will grab me, but then I’ll hear some Duane Allman or Jimmy Page. Strat or Les Paul?

While reading up on all this, I found the HSS setup intriguing. I read where it’ll let you dabble in both, but others say it won’t let you do either right. I figure since I’m so indecisive, I can dabble, and replace the pups if I find a sound I do or don’t like. The humbucker might get a split coil( should be a fun wiring project there), or a single coil if I go that route. If I must have another humbucker, there are single-coil sized replacements as well. I’ll admit it might be cheaper to get these things up front if I knew what I wanted, but I don’t.

I’m not really looking for much. I’m looking for a guitar that works, and that I can muck about with as I learn. . .and that will get me the chicks. I mean, in truckloads.

Edited to add: Thanks for the reply, I appreciate it.

8

This. You need a neck that works properly or its over. If you can’t fret notes properly, take it back and try another.

Then clearly you need one of these.

9

I shall do so, thanks for the advice.

I. . .um. . .that is. . .

Huh.

I think the chicks would just run off with my guitar and forget about me.

10

I think you’re over focusing on the HSS thing. A $129 HSS gets you a crappy humbucker and 2 crappy single coils, vs an SSS with 3 crappy single coils. Either way you get a guitar that can likely accommodate HSS or SSS if you want to tinker.

You’re likely to spend a year learning to play this guitar as a beginner. Focus on stuff that addresses making you want to play the guitar and keeps you coming back - does it feel fun to strum, does it sound cool through whatever amp you have, does it make you want to play it. The “H” doesn’t do that by itself. I don’t know what will do that for you, but if you know nothing at all about playing then you have a steep learning curve in front of you. Focus on anything that can make that fun, not whether you have something that makes you EVH or SRV. That comes later. Find an instrument you’re excited about for whatever reason (including H) and invest in learning something new with it. The important thing is to keep playing, keep playing. The rest of it follows from that.

11

I am not focused on any particular sound or artist. I just want to learn, have fun, and see what sounds I can get out of it. I’ll look for some lessons, follow them and practice them, but early on I’m also going to learn a few simple things that I can go back to for fun. I’ll need something that I can break out when the lessons get to be a grind. That was one of the problems I always had with my harmonica - it always seemed like a grind to practice. Looking over the beginner-level videos on youtube, there seems to be some simple things I could learn that would make things more fun when the grind gets me down.

I’m going to poke around the internet and youtube to see what I can learn, and see where that takes me. The HSS setup just seems like a versatile platform on which to explore. If I suddenly get a good deal on a better quality Strat-copy, or a Les Paul clone, that plan may change. No matter what I get (assuming it works), I’ve got some fun and learning ahead.

If you do check out the Bullets in a few days, I’ll be interested in seeing how you think the new ones stack up against the Xaviere. If I might stress the HSS one more time, the Bullets are made in different factories, and I believe all the HSS ones are all made in the same place. It’s been said that quality varies depending on which factory it comes from, and I’ve also heard (for whatever hearsay on the 'net is worth) that the HSS ones are a little better. I’ll be interested to read what you find.

In the meantime, I’ll keep checking out the Xaviere and see if any deals ever pop up. Just my luck that they would dry up now.

12

As an aficionado of getting your rock on without spending a lot, let me say there’s no magic formula for the cheap, playable guitar. I have more than a dozen guitars bought for less than $250. The two free ones were the worst, only suitable for slide. My current daily guitar is a Wal-Mart special (bow down before the Synsonics Pro Series!!!) that I bought from my sister-in-law for $50. It’s a pretty solid play, but the bridge and neck pickups only sound good overdriven. My favorite guitar is an Asian-built Goya Les Paul jr. copy that I bought with a 30W tube amp for $150. It’s pickups sounded ok, but were anemic. However, it had already been re-wired by a genius/madman. I replaced the bridge with a Teisco Del Rey pickup that I got for free, and the neck was replaced with a P-90 that I traded a DiMarzio humbucker for. Thanks to the re-wire, the switch from humbuckers to single coils did not require changing the pots to make them manageable (I still am not 100% certain how the re-wire works. I think it makes the tone knobs pair into a 1 band sweepable E.Q. At least, it seems to work that way.) It honestly plays and sounds as good as my wife’s '67 Gibson SG Junior, which plays and sounds very well. The biggest disappointment was a Japanese built Ibanez that developed a wobbly fingerboard, cost me $100. (Yes, I do have a guitar for any slide tuning I feel in the mood for, why do you ask :slight_smile: ?)

My point is, if you’re willing to do some tooling on the guitar, the world is your oyster. The pickup switch and re-wiring that the Goya got transformed it from a sweet playing practice guitar to the guitar I pull out to wow other people with its sound. There’s nothing particularly special about it’s hunk of mahogany, other than it’s nice and dense. Any guitar that seems to have a tiny bit of heft to it should be ok sound-wise. If it’s a brick, it’s just waiting for the right pickups.* The pickup mounting hole in the Goya was gouged out with wood cutting chisels. If you have access to a router, you can probably put any pickups you can dream of into any solid body guitar. If you’re worried about finishing it, there’s plenty of help on the internet for refinishing a guitar well with equipment as basic as a spray can.

The neck will be a potential problem no matter how much you spend. To begin with, that guitar may just have the wrong neck shape for you. Some people like big baseball bat necks. There are squarish necks (I’m looking at you, Guyatone), v-necks, slim necks, all kinds of necks. Which neck you like depends on your hands, and how you play. Even if you like how the neck feels, you can’t count on it forever, and it might still need work to “work”. I’ve bought new guitars that I would consider pricey, that still needed about $100 of fret dressing to make me happy. I’ve also bought guitars at garage sales made by reputable manufacturers that were perfect the day I bought them, but were only useful for slide 2 years later. No amount of work besides neck replacement would make them good guitars anymore. I suggest taking any problem you can’t handle to a luthier (like fret leveling/dressing), but learning how to do a basic setup should be well within your grasp if you were once contemplating building a guitar. IMHO, It seems like everyone wants to complain about the factory setup from just about any maker. I think that by the time you feel you know how to play, setup ends up being a personal thing, and the middle of the road setup you get from the factory satisfies no-one. On top of that, it’s hard to communicate to a guitar tech how you want it to be, and easier to do it yourself. I’m a pretty hard player, but I can get away with low action if the neck relief is just right. I’d rather play with it myself for a few hours at home while fooling around, rather than keep handing it back to the poor guy at his shop. YMMV.

If you’re buying the guitar in real life, but don’t know how to play yet, find someone who already knows how to play to put the guitar through its paces. If you don’t know how to play yet, it can be hard to figure out when the strings are buzzing because you picked way to hard, or if the strings are just too low, or the neck is too flat for your style. If you can’t get someone you trust to play it for you, play every string while fretting it individually on every fret. You’ll be looking for areas that buzz louder than others on the neck. If you have several, keep looking. If you buy it on the internet, make sure they have a liberal return policy, and do the same tests when you get it.

*I’m not gonna say materials don’t matter, but quality material doesn’t necessarily equal a good sounding electric (really, that Goya sounded average until its pickups were replaced), and “cheap” materials do not necessarily lead to a bad sounding one It really seems to be a crapshoot whether those particular pickups compliment that hunk of wood sometimes. My next planned purchases are for a Danelectro bass and a guitar. I’m just waiting for the right Longhorn bass, and the right guitar. They’re made out of masonite, and howl wonderfully. If you want that sound, it’s hard to find a substitute.

13

This all makes sense to me. You are better off finding a guitar that seems decent and playable and just get on with it. From there, if you want to swap anything you - do it. Or, if you live with it for a bit and realize what you like and don’t like about it, upgrade.

Discussing the relative importance of the materials used is not relevant at all in this stage in your playing - come back after playing for a few years and we can discuss it (I am NOT trying to be dismissive - sorry if it comes across that way; this is simply the truth). If the guitar plugs in and works and you can attempt classic rock riffs - you are all set. Frankly, same with pickups - they don’t really matter at this stage - just get playing. With an amp with built-in distortion, or a good pedal, you will be able to get your rock on sufficiently as a new player.

14

Good post. What kept me going as a struggling beginner was picking up a few cheap used stomp pedals. When bored or frustrated, I could still experiment with feedback, effects, and noise.

15

I think I’ve been saying that from the get-go. My only concern is getting something that will work as-is for awhile, and have decent enough wood to not fall apart while I play and mod it. I wouldn’t look down my nose at a unexpectedly good guitar at an unexpectedly good price, of course, but solid and playable is what I’m shooting for.

If anyone is discussing materials used (which I take to mean type of wood, etc) it’s not me. I’m totally on-board with this, and you’re right. I know that the tonal quality of the wood, and the quality of the pickups, aren’t going to be what’s holding me back anytime in the next few years - it will be my playing. No offense taken. If it were quick & easy to learn, everyone would do it.

You’re talking my language! For an amp, I’m looking at the Fender Mustang I for $99. The knobs & interface are a little odd according to what I’ve read, but it seems to have a lot going for it out of the box. When that gets old, I can plug it into my computer and modify the sound using their Fuze software.

16

All good. I’ve helped two friends wanting to try guitar and both got Mustang amps and been happy. I’m supposed to help one of them by stopping by and helping set the controls to get a good clean and a good crunchy setting. Not sure when…

As for the guitar, as I’ve said for years on this board, it’s hard to go wrong with a Telecaster-type guitar, and those GFS/Xaviere versions can be pretty good. Getting an HSS layout is okay and can work, but that layout, to me, shouldn’t be the first criteria. You can get a great thick rock crunch tone, for instance, on a Tele, amp set crunchy, with the Tele on the bridge pickup, Tone rolled down to maybe 7 and the Volume down to about 8.5. All the balls of a Les Paul…just sayin’

First should be a guitar that can take a good setup - ie, you can adjust the neck curve, string height/ action and intonation of the strings, and end up with a guitar that sounds musically good - in tune up and down the neck, yes, but chords sound musical and pleasing - the harmonics work together. When that happens, you think you sound good and are encouraged to play more.

17

Too much to quote and respond to, but I appreciate your thoughts and advice. Your adventures in the inexpensive end of the pool are encouraging, and reminds me of the dealings and creations of my musician friends many moons ago, when we were young and broke - not like now that I’m not so young and broke. :wink:

18

OK, I see where you’re going with this – some Bullets might be better than others. Got it. I may get over to GC this week, and I’ll see if I can try SSS and HSS Bullets if they have them. I did do a little googling about Bullets as well, and I’m inclined to the view that the differences are all internet voodoo, but who knows? FWIW, I haven’t played a Xaviere strat clone, so my experience with that brand will be a little apples-to-oranges to Bullets, but I’ll try to offer insight, at least against build quality and general solidness.

Hell, I’d just buy the Xaviere strat and be done; they’re $169-$184, and I bet not bad at all (tho’ as I said I can’t speak from experience with that model) and they have decent pickups. But obviously that’s me. That said, I respect what you’re doing here: trying to do some diligence and get advice, and that’s a perfect approach and I have no problem with that.

19

Yeah, it might well be internet voodoo, but not having experience, all I can do is read a variety of opinions and try to decide if they’re all cribbed from the same source. I don’t know about this one yet. Some will go into differences between models - 8 vs 11 screws in the pickguard, etc. Stuff like this can pick up steam though, and become ‘common knowledge’ without anyone knowing the source.

That said, remember the airguns I referenced in my first post? One I modded was Chinese made. The ‘serious’ airgunner community is fairly small, as you might imagine. I heard some stories about the factories over there at that time (on forums and websites), one or two from the guy who paid them to produce the airgun. The quality control is hit-or-miss to say the least, or was at the time. They worked with old equipment and tried to make it last as long as possible. I could easily believe the quality would vary between factories, if for no other reason than they may have different quality machinery.

I haven’t committed my money yet, so anything’s possible. Still collating data, as they say - besides, if I show a little patience, I hear tell they have some shiny deals on blemishes and such.

One thing though: I can’t help noticing you’re recommending a guitar you have no experience with over another guitar you have no experience with. :smiley: Think I’ll wait awhile to see if you get a chance to give those Bullets a once-over. I’ll be interested to hear what you think.

20

Yes, I saw that thread a guffawed a bit. :slight_smile: FWIW, 8 pickguard screws == “vintage” Strat, 11 == modern Strat. In a Strat clone it means the cloner drilled more screw holes that day.