Well, obviously I’m lumping all the numbering from the root type of systems in together.
I’ve had to learn something like 60 or 70 different songs for the various bands and projects I’m involved with. Sometimes I play under circumstances where I can’t rely on being able to see a chart, or backing up people who don’t read at all and who’ll change the arrangement on the fly. I played for a while with one guy who wouldn’t even stick to a set list and would launch into songs I’d never heard before – I basically had to follow along by watching his left hand and anticipating what the song structure might be. Even in my current main band, which is pretty well organized, I sometimes have to stop and ask what key a particular song is in, because it’s changed so often over the last year and a half.
I’ve found all of this is much easier to do (particularly the learning part) by focusing on shapes and structures rather than notes and chords in the absolute sense. And if some girl at a house party I’m playing at thinks I’m amazing because I can accompany her on a song she wrote herself (after she’d hummed the melody to me), well, that’s pretty nice too.
E-Sabs - this isn’t in any way a comment on you, but that kinda depends. I’ve played semi-pro for 30+ years and I don’t have the fluency that both** I-VI-ii-V** and **Kim **have; and **Le Ministre **and other pros have, too. It’s born of necessity - the more actively you gig across music styles, the more you focus on reading, transposing, etc. I gig my fair share, but run in local circles and play pretty straightforward stuff. I know folks who read music and are fluent that way for piano, say - but the instant-transposing, write-out-a-few-chords-on-a-napkin-and-go-with-it (if that, per Kim) fluency is the mark of a journeyman gigger and/or studio cat.
I envy that ability and know I could I achieve a semblance of it with time, but it is just out of my grasp; although I am sure I am taking my own degree of fluency a bit for granted. I have friends who play at their churches who keep their chops up that way; transposing gospel stuff on the fly.
**I-VI-ii-V **- lessons from Carol Kaye? Wow - for those Dopers that don’t know her, she’s a member of The Wrecking Crew (wiki link). If you have any stories, I’d love to hear them.
Oh - and squeegee: I am on the road for a few days; which means I’ll be stuck in a hotel room for a bit. Increases the odds I will do some ruminating on amps…
The nicest ting about the Nashville system is, since everything is referenced to a “root” number, transposing is made easier. Sure, some of us still need to have a look in advance and pencil the new chords out, but it goes quicker and with less mistakes using numbers. It makes the relationships more obvious. All you really need is a pencil and a cocktail napkin, and I am NO professional.
WordMan,** E-Sab**, and others, I have no doubt that all of the basic theory is completely within your reach and ability to learn. As Kim wrote, the guitar is laid out in a way that makes learning scales, chord construction, chord progressions based on degrees, intervals, etc. very easy and logical. If you haven’t noticed, I love talking about this topic. Feel free to ask any questions; I hope there will be some that I don’t know the answer to - I want to learn too!
What WordMan said about “born of necessity” is right on the mark. Put yourself in situations that will force you to learn something new.
Taking lessons from Carol Kaye isn’t really that big of a deal (and quite reasonably priced, given her pedigree). Many high-profile players give lessons. Just give her a call and set it up; it’s that easy [if you live in or are visiting L.A.]. She is a good teacher, but I think she is too dogmatic. Her method is the only method. I think open-mindedness is a very important quality to look for in a teacher and unfortunately she is lacking in that department. On the other hand, she is very patient and I do use her fingering system/thumb pivot technique. I’ve also learned quite a bit of theory from her lessons and books.
Stories? Well, she once told me a story about how back in the day she was in the studio while the Monkees were outside the studio being interviewed about the record that THEY were recording (while she and the other studio musicians were really recording it). Speaking of the “Wrecking Crew”, according to CK, they never called themselves that or were referred to it by others. Hal Blaine came up with it for the name of his book. If I remember correctly, CK said they called themselves “The Clique.”
There’s that – but also, there are a handful of progressions that turn up in tons of different songs. You might not notice if you’re just looking at the chords and notes, but it becomes obvious when you look at it from the perspective of the Nashville system (or whatever you call that count up from the root notes thingy).
After a while, you end up thinking things like, “Uhuh, this is one of those I-IV-VIm-V songs. Okay, I know how that goes.”
So you play it, then someone says, “Wait, I thought you said you didn’t know this song?”
I was jamming with the boys a couple of weeks ago and I played Sweet Home Alabama for about a half-hour only to find out the rest of the boys were playing a Take the Money and Run.
Oh yeah - you can’t help but stumble into chord patterns and riff patterns that, once you recognize them, kinda play themselves. That’s what I meant when I said that I was taking my own fluency for granted. Nothing like trying to figure out a song and then realizing “waitaminnit - that’s the same as XX!”
gotta love it when Kid Rock points the way - Sweet Home, Werewolves, etc. all blended into All Summer Long.
As for Carol Kaye - thanks I-VI-ii-V; stuff like that is interesting. I did the same thing - when I took lessons for the one-and-only time, it was with a guitarist who was the music director for RRHoFamer pianist Charles Brown (“Driftin’ Blues”) - he picked up lessons on the side through a good music store in town. In my case, since I couldn’t sight-read and made it clear I just wanted high-level coaching, he addressed a few technique issues and showed me cool riffs
I didn’t know that Blaine “made up” the WC name. Makes sense…
Go to that mash-up John Van Halen thread - there are a few.
I remember 10+ years ago, there were a few songs that didn’t have exactly the same chord structure, but close enough for me to move through them and surprise people:
Closing Time by Semisonic
Good by Better than Ezra
When I Come Around by Green Day
Prison Bound by Social Distortion
they just kinda flowed into one another.
There as a minor-league band in the 80’s called April Wine. They had a song called I Like to Rock that conflated the riffs from Day Tripper, JJFlash and Satisfaction…ah, here it is. IIRC, the riffage happens towards the end…ETA: 4:00 in…
The thread about surf music reminded me of another thing Carol Kaye told me. According to her, her group of studio musicians would record some surf tunes and then a “band” would be formed after the fact. BTW, I usually take what she says with a grain of salt - do a little research about some of her controversial claims and you’ll see what I mean. She has claimed to have played on some tunes that James Jamerson is the bassist of record…songs like “Bernadette” and “I Was Made to Love Her”. For those interested, here’s some info.
Fascinating - I totally believe the “band after the fact” type of story - sounds like vintage music-biz stuff.
But a huge bass legend claiming to have played on songs that an even bigger bass legend (FTR, Jamerson was Motown’s house bassist; very, very few match his reputation - Kaye is close, but not quite Jamerson, IMHO) is on record as having played? There must be a story there.
The short version of the story is that Motown was recording in L.A. in the early 60s using the L.A. studio musicians. They were secret-under-the-table-non-union sessions. IIRC, they were told some of the songs they were recording were demos, but they ended up using the tracks for the released versions. When word got out about L.A. Motown sessions, Berry Gordy announced that Motown was opening offices in L.A. (this was in the mid 60s I think). I’m going by memory…you can read about it in her website forum. For years Carol Kaye said a book by Russ Wapensky was going to come out and be the definitive source of “when who played on what” based on studio logs, contracts, etc. The book has never came out.
Do a search on Dr. Licks - he wrote the book “Standing in the Shadows of Motown”, years before the movie. It is about Jamerson and features transcriptions of his lines. When he disputed Carol Kaye’s claims, she sued him. She is very, let’s say, litigious. Be careful what you say and write about CK. Bass drama.
Are there any who-played-on-what guitarist controversies?
Ah - that makes sense; Gordy moved the label in that timeframe, and was a business-first kinda guy, so I can see him doing something like that.
Sure - there are who-played-on-what controversies on guitar. The first two that jumped to mind were Jimmy Page’s pre-Zep studio sessions - he played on The Who’s Can’t Explain and (I think) the Kink’s You Really Got Me (clearly not the lead - that mess is all Dave Davies, thankyouverymuch) - but different participants claim different levels of Pagey-ness.
Also, it isn’t a controversy, per se, but a famous who-played-what: Paul played the lead on Taxman, not George. It was George’s song and his first to lead an album (a huge deal in the shadow of L&M), but he couldn’t nail the lead with an appropriate psych/middle Eastern feel. Paul pulled out his trusty Casino and nailed it - and George had to live down folks regularly telling him it was his best lead - ouch.
Right - Page [and John Paul Jones] were all over the place in the studio. Hey Wordman, this isn’t controversial or pre-Zep, but what do you think about the Lord Sutch album? It’s been voted as one of the worst albums of all time, but I think there’s some cool playing on it.
Yep on Taxman. There’s also a handful of tunes that Paul didn’t play bass that are pretty kick-ass. Helter Skelter comes to mind…pretty simple, but it rocks. The new remasters really bring the bass out.
Oh yeah, obligatory “Something” is my favorite Lennon & McCartney composition.
- Sweet Home, Werewolves, etc. all blended into All Summer Long.
