West
Side
Story
Then South Park: Bigger, Longer, Uncut
Oliver! (is that American?)
The Sound of Music is a great film of a pretty good musical.
Yeah, but by that logic Andrew Lloyd Webber belongs within spitting distance too, and that way maddness lies.
Oklahoma! and *Carousel *predate them both by almost 20 years and everything that is true about either Fiddler or La Mancha is true of Oklahoma! both and Carousel. Personally I like La Mancha the best of the of the lot, but neither *Fiddler *or *La Mancha *would be possible without Oklahoma! or Carousel.
There we can agree, I think. Although which of his songs would you qualify as one of the best in musical theatre history?
OK. But “greatest” and “most influential” don’t mean the same thing.
:: donning Iron Man armor, activating flame countermeasures, & arming repulsors ::
He did some good work in Jesus Christ Superstar, Joseph & the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat, Aspects of Love, and of course Evita.
Unfortunately, none of these can atone for Cats.
Skald mentioned some stuff, but I won’t touch that question with a 10 foot pole*.
Fair enough. I think that the level of influence/how groundbreaking something is is more important to me than it is to you in when it comes to defining greatness. For me it’s a key element, for you it’s not. That’s perfectly fine.
*I think Music of the Night and or Memories would be on many people’s lists.
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
Stay where you are. We’ll be arriving with pitchforks, torces, and a stake in just a little while.
Oh, I agree, and don’t get me wrong: I’m not one of those awful people who run down Lloyd Webber and dismiss everything he’s ever written. I quite like all the shows you name - including especially Aspects of Love - and I even like Cats (I was in an amateur production of it a few years ago, and it was some of the most fun I’ve ever had).
It’s just that I can’t identify any one song of his that I’d define as truly great. Lots of songs that are very good, even a few that are excellent, but none that are great in that sort of transcends-the-rest-of-the-work kind of way that, say, “Finishing the Hat” from SUNDAY IN THE PARK WITH GEORGE does. I think it’s an interesting thing; if he had written just one song to qualify, one “Soliloquy” or “Meadowlark” or “Ol’ Man River,” he’d have a better reputation than he does.
Not that he cares, of course, what with spending his days washing his ass with his champagne bidet, but there it is.
Help! I said many peoples not mine! Stay away! I like the opera’s of Philip Glass! You’ve got the wrong guy!
And what is the point of putting it in tiny font if folks are just going to quote it and make it big again for everyone to see? 
Lloyd Webber’s had a lot of hits, and a lot of misses, but the man has a genius for melody. Think of Me is one of my favorites. I’m not a Cats person, but I have fun when I listen to the music of Jellicle Songs for Jellicle Cats.
Enjoy,
Steven
The only reason I cannot state categorically that “Finishing the Hat” is the best damn song ever written for a musical is the existence of “Lesson #8” from the same show and “I wish I Could Forget You” from Passion. In the unlikely event that Heaven and Hell exist, Sondheim will be admitted tothe latter no matter what sins he has commited on the strength of those three songs, and souls consigned to the latter, during their occasional refrigeria (refrigeriums?) will be comforted by said songs.
People who listen to Glass operas shouldn’t throw stones.
Enjoy,
Steven
I’m evil. Jeez. Don’t you guys get that by now, or do I have to destroy Australia as well as New Zealand next weekend?
Just get Australia drunk, the rest will follow naturally. They’ll probably sing Waltzing Matilda the whole time.
Enjoy,
Steven
I agree with that! The show has IMHO the greatest disparity as far as interest goes between the story and the climax. What a song! Pippin, think about the sun!
Also, I’m glad Fenris mentioned Bat Boy. It’s a great show on many levels, and even the worst song is pretty darned good.
A friend whose opinion I trust raved about Spring Awakenings - calling it the fulfillment of the promise made by Rent - striking an analogy between the promise made by Showboat and the fulfillment by Oklahoma!
Spring Awakening is in town this weekend. I hadn’t planned on seeing it. I might now.
Do so, then report back to this thread for debriefing.
I don’t get the hate for Oklahoma (film version). I think it’s lovely, fresh, and expansive, just like its setting. The two leads are utterly winning – few men can touch Gordon McRae as a singer, and he adds such charm, wit and tenderness to the part; Shirley Jones is almost achingly young and pretty, with a slightly immature but jewel-like voice and a flirty, feisty and vulnerable personality that suits Laurey. Gloria Grahme can’t sing, but Ado Annie doesn’t really need to (in fact, it works to her advantage), and she’s got oodles of quirky, offbeat sex appeal. Eddie Albert is hilarious, as is … uh, the chick who plays Aunt Eller. Even non-singing Rod Steiger acquits himself in an amusing yet threatening role. The orchestration and dancing are stellar and the cinematography sublime. It’s all good to me.
Anyway, I’m a little surprised by the OP’s including of Phantom of the Opera as a potential greatest American musical. 
But otherwise, my two candidates for greatest musical (show, not film) are West Side Story and Sweeney Todd. If the latter is disqualified because it doesn’t take place in America, then we’re left with WSS. WSS is both tremendously influential (its popularity dragged Bway kicking and screaming into modern relevance) and brilliant on its own, with Bernstein’s genius, innovative score and Sondheim’s clever lyrics (though some lack the skill and confidence he’d gain later). The book may seem dated, but it’s a larger-than-life version of a particular era and circumstance: it’s evocative rather than realistic, and that’s okay too. And of course, you can’t talk about WSS without applauding Jerome Robbins’ breathtaking choreography. But above all, for me, it’s the music that makes this show so transcendant. From brash jazzy dissonance of the overture to the heartbreaking delicacy of the “Somewhere” / “I Have a Love” melodies that finishes the play, this score is note-perfect.
Personally I think Sweeney Todd has eclipsed WSS for me as a favorite, perhaps because of its story’s darkness, its sophisticated lyrics, and witty, lush, ambitious score. But it’s a very close call.
Coming up close behind would be The King and I and Jesus Christ Superstar (both disqualified for this topic for setting in the former and setting/creators in the latter) and the film version of Fiddler on the Roof (ditto, for the same setting-based reason as Sweeney and King; I go with the film version because I think the original’s kinda draggy on stage). For the same reason I love Sound of Music but the film version is preferable, again because the stage version seems slow whenever I see it.
I guess my next favorite that actually qualifies as being written by Americans and taking place in America would be 1776, which I believe boasts the strongest book of any musical. I’d enjoy it even without music, but the music is charming and adds so much to the show.
Of other musicals oft-mentioned: To be honest, and this may make me a heretic, but Gypsy has always irritated me. I know objectively it’s a good showbizzy show, but I just don’t like it very much. The score does nothing for me. My Fair Lady is brilliant (though disqualified again), and the score to Guys and Dolls delights me more every time I hear it.
Whew. Sorry for being gasbaggy.
While I agree that the film version of Fiddler moved along better than the stage version, and I speak from a tiny bit of experience here, having played Golde in a community production, no one can match Zero Mostel as Tevye; as good in the role as Topol was, it was Mostel’s creation and will, in my mind, forever be his.
I have a tendancy when watching a show (stage or movie) viewing it with an eye of which character is right for me. So if I find a role I can see myself playing, even non-traditionally*, that intensifies the value of the show for me.
- I think I’d have made a swell Nicely-Nicely Johnson before the arthritis kicked in