The Hajj

Reference this column: http://www.straightdope.com/columns/010608.html

Just in case anyone’s wondering what the Embassy of Saudi Arabia (in Washington, DC) has to say about getting to Mecca.

In Arabic
http://www.saudiembassy.net/travel_info/HajjRegArabic.htm

In English
http://www.saudiembassy.net/hajj/regulations-1421.htm

Regarding the original question (Have any infidels made the pilgrimage to Mecca), I seem to remember that Spike Lee made the Hajj preparatory to making the movie Malcolm X.

Well, good, I don’t have to start a whole thread for this question. Is this column referring specifically to people making the pilgrimage and visiting the tomb, etc., or to non-Muslims visiting the whole city of Mecca itself? Monty’s consular information link deals only with people travelling specifically on the pilgrimage, not to Joe Blow from Kokomo who wants to open up some new territory for his car wash franchises.

http://travel.state.gov/saudi.html

How do they keep non-Muslims out of Mecca? I find it difficult to believe that some enterprising non-Muslim journalist hasn’t managed to figure out a way to get in. Five minutes with Google shows that there are Web pages with hotel reservations in Mecca, there are tour groups that “do” Mecca, there are airlines that fly to Mecca. So how would they keep you out? Do the tour groups, charter flights, and hotels have a screening process, or what? Couldn’t you just, well, lie?

http://www.bruneiwbc.com/wbc_company_intan.htm

Couldn’t you just sign up, and show up? Are they going to ask you if you’re Muslim?

If you make a reservation at the Hyatt Makkah, and show up at the front desk, are they going to inquire as to your religion?
http://hotelroomsplus.com/saudi-arabia/mecca%20makkah.htm

If you went to Hat Yai Airport in Thailand, and got on a flight to Mecca, at what point in the proceedings would someone ask you what religion you are? Again, couldn’t you just lie?

http://www.airportthai.or.th/airportnew/hatyai/html/

Pleased to help. :slight_smile:

The column provided the answer to a question about non-muslims getting into the two forbidden cities; however, Saudi Arabia does have some unique entry requirements. So, my guess is it’s okay to digress a tad into those in this thread since the Saudi government says it’s Islam that serves as the basis for their entire government.

Those two links are renewed annually (actually - each Islamic year) by the Saudi Embassy because to travel on the Hajj, one must have a Hajj visa. And for foreign Muslim residents in the Kingdom, they are permitted to make the Hajj only once every five years. Islamic years, of course.

There are other types of visas, all of which require an in-country (or Saudi government-approved out-country) sponsoring individual or organization.

Here’s the info from that site:

You’ll notice that there are roadblocks staffed by the police, and that apparently there’s an arrivals check at the airports (which, btw, are not located in the two prohibited cities). It shouldn’t take too much to verify one’s religion at that point, as the visa application requires one to state that. And let’s not forget that the penalty for renouncing al-Islam, if one’s a Muslim in Saudi Arabia, is death, IIRC. The visa application: http://www.saudiembassy.net/travel_info/Travel00.htm (click on Visa Information and Application and then click on the link brought up).

Yes, to all of the above. However, see my previous comment.

http://www.bruneiwbc.com/wbc_company_intan.htm

Yes, they’re definitely going to ask you that. Especially because the Saudi government requires that information prior to granting a visa.

The hotel’s not going to have to because the Saudi government already did, at least once, perhaps even twice (when you completed the visa application and when you got screened on arrival).

Long before you got on the airplane. The airline’s not going to board you without a visa and you have to provide the information to get a visa. Airlines which knowingly transport people without a required visa also get penalized by the offended government.

Another interesting note: If you’re a Christian woman, not Saudi Arabian, and marry a Saudi Arabian citizen, and then have a child, that child is considered by Saudi law both a Saudi citizen and a Muslim.

[[Another interesting note: If you’re a Christian woman, not Saudi Arabian, and marry a Saudi Arabian citizen, and then have a child, that child is considered by Saudi law both a Saudi citizen and a Muslim.]]

And women, Muslim or not, are not allowed to make the Hajj.

From the 2nd link I provided above:

As I’ve mentioned before on the SDMB, Sir Richard Francs Burton is a fave of mine. I’ve read his Personal Narrative of a Pilgrimage to Mecca and al-Medina several times over.

  1. In his as-usual exhaustive appendix he lists books by non-Muslim travelers who made the trip before him, and he reproduces in its entirety the account of a European taken as a slave on the Hajj.

  2. Burton may have been ambiguous about his own religious status, but I suspect he was more an agnostic who particpated in religious ceremonies than a believer in any orthodoxy. At the end of Pilgrimage he exhorts readers to make the hajj n their own, without any talk of converting.

  3. Years laer, after Burton had prposed to his future wife, but before she accepted (things took longer in those days, I guess), he made pilgrimage to Salt Lake City. Burton seems to have made a hobby of collecting “forbidden” cities having been to Mecca, Medina, and Harar. SLC wasn’t in the same class, but there is a rumor – one of those things that ought to be true, if they aren’t – that when he greeted Brigham Young, Young replied “I understand you’ve done something of the sort before.” (This isn’t supported by Burton’s own book , The City of the Saints.)

All the books I have on Islam indicate that women do make the hajj. There are separate quarters for the sexes, separate dress codes, and proscriptions against sexual intercourse while on the pilgrimage.

– Beruang

My earlier post was made from memory. I’ve dug out my two-volume Dover copy of “Pilgrimage”

  1. Burton makes several references to women making the Hajj. I’m quite certain that my other books on Islam talk about women making the Pilgrimage, as well.

  2. He actually reprints several of the accounts of previous non-Muslims making the Hajj =-- Lodovico Martema in 1503, Joseph Pitts in 1680, and Giovanni Finati some time after that. At the start of his book he mentions three others – the French Viscount Escatrac de Lanture, the Swedish (!) consul at Cairo, M. Bertolucci, and Dr. George A. Wallin of Finland.

  3. I can’t find his suggestion that other Europeans perform the journey, but I distinctly recall it being in there.

  4. Regarding Spike Lee’s movie X. I never heard that Lee himself made the Pilgrimage, and it was my understanding that the actors and cameramen who did were themselves Muslim.

Golly. :frowning: Well, thank you, Monty, that was what I wanted to know. Roadblocks? Jeepers.

[going to light candles to the memory of Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, et al]

And, not to tell the Saudis how to run their country or anything, but don’t they realize they’re missing out on billions in tourist revenue? Harry and Martha from Cleveland, not to mention Joe Blow from Kokomo, would love to see this, and they’d promise to be real respectful. Saudi Arabia may not need billions in tourist revenue, but, you know, guys, the oil won’t last forever. :slight_smile:

DDG,

The Saudi Government (read: The al-Saud family) are pretty sensitive about being seen by other muslims as not exactly muslims since the al-Sauds are Wahabis and not Sunni or Shi’ite.

Regarding outsiders being respective of the muslims laws: one individual in Carrier Air Wing Five (when I was assigned to it) thought it was a good idea to preach the Gospel in Abu Dhabi right around lunch time in a large square downtown. Lucky for him, the US Navy’s Shore Patrol got him before the locals did.

The Saudi government walks a very thin tightrope on the issues of Mecca and Medina.

<< And, not to tell the Saudis how to run their country or anything, but don’t they realize they’re missing out on billions in tourist revenue? >>

Tourist revenues? Peanuts! You forget, the Saudis are sitting on riches beyond measure from oil. They can afford to scoff at tourists.

While it might be possible for a non-Muslim to sneak into a hajj tour (perhaps with the compliance of the tour guide), that person would need to be well versed in Islam (a simple mistake, like in diet or dress, would reveal all). And the penalties for being caught – well, Islam is not well known for being a religion of forgiveness and understanding. And the Saudis have a very interesting judicial system – cutting off the hands of a thief, for instance. So the stakes would be very high, for an unscrupulous reporter (I guess that’s probably redundant, eh?)

Come on! Of course women make the Hajj, I’ve even met some American women that made it several times!

I realize someone answered this, but I really don’t appreciate people making claims like that on the basis of some news reports from Afghanistan.

I haven’t read the entire thread, but I’d like to add something if no one else has.
The ingrown town of Jeddah is sometimes mistaken for Mecca proper, and anyone can go in and out of Jeddah as they please. The airport is located there, so one can’t actually fly in without going into “the Jeddah part of Mecca”.

As far as the tourism thing goes, there’s just no space for them during the Hajj. There are even (newly imposed) limits on how many times one can go. The number of muslims has multiplied while Mecca is still the same size, so keeping people who shouldn’t be there out is done to make sure devout muslims can themselves attend.
— G. Raven

Not to nitpick, but the al-Sauds are Sunni. Wahabi is one of the Sunni schools of jurisprudence.

Yes, it might be nice in a Cecil thread to actually make statements backed by actual fact, preferably with some citation to a factual reference.

Well, I know a few Muslims who might challenge that description of their faith. Let us not confuse the whole of Islam with the fundamentalist “interpretation” imposed by certain governments whose primary concern is creating and holding power. (Or, in the case of the Sauds, to “proving” their Islamic credentials to their critics.) The Taliban and other such extremist groups bear a relationship to the rest of Islam not too dissimilar to the relationship of the Salem witch trials to the rest of Christianity.

Certainly, there are things in Islam which a Christian, or a Western secularist, would find troubling. But then, there are things in the West that Muslims find troubling. It all makes for better pudding.

– Beruang

Now, please don’t anyone take this the wrong way, but I just have to enquire about the issue of JillGat’s eronious post.

I’ve been seeing her columns and posts since I first arrived and they are all extremely well researched, unbiased and basically very good scholarly work on a wide variety of subjects.

Of course, we all make mistakes (mostly me though :D), but I am interested in knowing where you got your ideas about the Hajj, specifically the right of females to parttake.
I was rather shocked to see your name next to such blatant misinformation, since I usually take the SD Staff’s words to be as infallable as Cecil’s own.
So, what happened Jill? Did you kick who’s ever ass deserved it for telling you that? :smiley:

— G. Raven