The intellectually disabled and bodily autonomy

I have a 45 year old brother that is intellectually disabled (ID) and lives in a group home. He has a girlfriend that is about his age that also lives in the home. (Technically, she lives in a separate physical building but it is all considered part of the same home.) When you see them together, your immediate reaction is “How cute!” They hold hands and sometimes they even kiss. AFAIK, it doesn’t go any further than that and I believe that if it did, I would be informed as I am my brother’s legal guardian.

The whole situation got me to thinking about their bodily autonomy. As they are both ID, neither one could legally give consent for anything as far as I can tell. I believe that it would be 100% wrong and hopefully illegal if a non-ID person were to kiss one of them on the lips as they do each other. Since they are both ID, does that change things legally or morally?

I really have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, they both seem happy with the situation and part of me says that that should be the end of it. On the other hand, in any relationship, consent is of the utmost importance and given their ID, I don’t see how they can give it.

One thing to consider is how we treat minors. We say children under a certain age are unable to give consent, but then we don’t ban them from having sex with each other, as abstinence-only education just doesn’t work.

A lot of the idea of consent with regards to sex is based on the idea that one party could be taking advantage of the other. When they’re on a more level playing field, we’re more relaxed about that sort of thing. That’s not to say we just throw up our hands completely, but we don’t treat it the same way.

I do know that sometimes people assign rough age-equivalencies to those with IDs. It’s not the most accurate thing in the world, but I think it might be useful for you here. Would you say they’re at like a 10-year-old’s level, or more like a 15-year-old’s?

I agree. And although the OP’s concern is certainly valid and understandable, what follows from it is legally telling these two that they can never have sex ever. And I think that is worse that the consent issue. I think you hit it on the head. While me or you might be taking advantage of their condition to gain consent, they are operating at the same level and can consent in that sphere.

Stephen is well under 10. He can remember lots of things and he knows what he likes and doesn’t like but he has limited cognitive abilities. He can’t read or write and I don’t think he could tell you that 50 is more than 40. “Becky” is not non-verbal but she doesn’t talk much. I’d probably put her “age” around 5 but that’s just a WAG because I’ve only met her a couple of times. It’s really difficult to assign ages to either one of them. Certainly neither of them would be capable of living on their own.

It is certainly a difficult issue. My first cousin who is now 48 suffers from the same issue. Until recently he lived with his parents, but now lives in a group home where they serve them meals but he cooks a little bit on his own with supervision and has a menial job where they pay him $1/hour or some such thing that he can use to purchase snacks.

Relevant to the thread, they always had an issue when traveling because he would order literally hundreds of dollars worth of pornography on PPV. They threatened him with punishment, but it didn’t stop. They stayed at my house and I almost died when I saw my $1100 satellite bill. They took many of it off the bill, such as the movies that were ordered at the same time, and my uncle said he would pay me back. I was younger, but I told him no, I wanted (name redacted) to pay me back.

Perhaps I shouldn’t have been so harsh, but what you say was at least a serious concern in my opinion. For example, if he watched a rape fantasy in one of those movies, would he understand that you can’t do that to women? It’s a tough issue all around.

My first feeling is that the OP is overthinking this a bit. Even a decade ago, it would never have occurred to anyone that simple kissing would require consent. Certainly, when I was dating (to be sure, this was getting on to 60 years ago) I never would have thought to ask my date permission to kiss her. Of course, had she pulled back, I would have respected that too.

Now sex would be a different matter. I would be very worried if that were the question. But even there, the main issue is one of power and that is not the question here.

I’m sure that I am overthinking it. As Stephen’s guardian, I kind of feel that it’s my responsibility to do that.

But this thread wasn’t necessarily meant to be just about Stephen and “Becky”, I’m also interested in the broader topic of the ID and consent. -

I think it’s a fascinating question. I found this article and skimmed it briefly – enough to say “it’s complicated.”

But to the extent you or any other is interested, I think it’s a good resource:

TL;DR:

Conclusion: Discussing and assessing the capacity for sexual consent is not easy. The topics involved are sensitive, controversial, and important. Mental health professionals have a critical role to play in these activities, and individuals with mental impairments deserve capacity assessments that accurately reflect their psychological capabilities, respect their sexual rights, and protect them from sexual abuse.

Thank you for the link. The article brings up a whole host of things that I hadn’t considered.

For instance, suppose that someone has memory issues. They might be able to make perfectly fine decisions based upon what they believe they remember but suppose that they had a bad experience with another person and just don’t remember it. They could keep making the same mistake over and over again. So is it consent if you’re only working with partial information? The rom-com movie “50 First Dates” always bugged me.

So…hypothetical…Stephen and Becky find some unsupervised location in the home and actually have sex. Becky becomes pregnant. Becky’s family upon this discovery, months later, assume that Stephen must be the father.

Are charges filed against Stephen…or the administrators of the home?
Whom do Becky’s family proceed against for child support? the home, or Nars_Ginley?

Why do we assume that Stephen would have charges filed against him and not Becky?

One reason might be that Stephen is higher functioning than Becky.

In the abstract, I have wondered about all of these things as well. In reality, given Stephen’s psychological age, I’m not worried about it.

If we generalize to other ID persons, I would assume that the guardian would be on the hook for child support just like the parent of a minor would be. (I think. I don’t really know and if I’m wrong, I’m not surprised.) I’d think that the admins of the home and the group that runs it would then get sued for improper care.

In IMHO right now there’s a similar discussion going on in the context of elder homes populated with folks who weren’t ID, but are now somewhere along the dementia pathway leading to obliviousness.

Which thread real quickly homed in on the idea of “capacity to consent”. So a similar issue as this thread but from a different cause.

There are other issues than power - what if “Becky” is of childbearing age? While I presume they have not been shown porn, nor given a detailed description of how babies are made, it’s possible they might figure things out - and a pregnancy would be a disaster.

It truly is (or, could be) a tricky situation and kudos to Nars for being concerned.

Not meaning to pile on; I just happened to get here now right after @Mama_Zappa tackled the same post.

But ref this:

Just working from averages, Stephen is bigger than Becky and stronger pound for pound. And has significantly greater “mental age”. As in he can form a plan, “childish” though it may be, and work it through to completion, albeit clumsily by adult human standards. Meanwhile she’s not really there yet, mostly living in the moment.

If he gets it in his head to accomplish some goal with her she’ll mostly just be along for the ride. Given what @Nars_Glinley has told us of his condition, he thoroughly lacks moral agency. So we can’t condemn him (and I’m certainly not here) for forming any plan, whether the contents of that plan are to have sex with her or give her an ice cream cone or share his coloring book with her. Although as @Mama_Zappa points out, an executed plan, even one lacking moral agency may still have significant real world consequences in this case.

Switching gears …

I have a feeling that the part of the mind/brain that “gets” Tab A & Slot B is installed pretty deep down in the lizard brain and is mostly intact in both of those folks. The best hope is that the desire to go down that road is absent. But if something, anything, even a barely suggestive scene in a PG-rated TV show, plants the idea then they could certainly be off to the (submarine) races.

What I am utterly clueless about is how the sex hormonal development of ID folks meshes with their mental development. Normal adult sex hormones plus limited brain / mind power could be very powerful and unrestrained. Or could simply be absent; we all know the biggest / best sex organ any of us have is our mind, and tragically these folks got short-changed in that department.

What little I know from random reading over the years it seems that unrestrained sexual desire among the ID is rarely a problem out in the real world. Not never, but rarely. Net of institutional coverups of course. With the implication that the “powerful and unrestrained” scenario is not the way to bet. If nothing else Stephen is 45. If he was gonna go all aggressive, he’d have probably done that 30-ish years previously. Past performance doesn’t guarantee the immediate future, but it sure suggests it.

I wish everyone involved the best.

It’s possible that one or both are not biologically capable – either by nature or as a side effect of medication – to go any further. In which case there would be no need for consent.

I’ve never seen this program but it looks really interesting. Some of them are driving cars, living on their own, getting married…?

FWIW, I have had cases where both parties had significant ID diagnoses and no support was ordered, simply due to not meeting the self-support threshold. This is in Minnesota; obviously, other states may vary, but self-support is a Federal guideline. Paternity would be established, support set at -0- or reserved.

I used to work with young adults and children with developmental disabilities. As teenagers, their hormones rage just as everyone else’s. They got sex ed appropriate to their abilities. I really hope the group home where your brother lives spends time on sex positive sex ed!

If they don’t, perhaps you could try finding an organisation that provides such and see if they could do a few sessions?

A professional wouldn’t spark anything and that’s not already there, people with disabilities have bodies, hormones, feelings, physical needs, like everyone else.

The flip side I saw in Romania in the early 2000s. A “psychiatric” “care” “facility” (yes those are scare quotes, none of these words describe the place) where they had several abortions every year and I wouldn’t describe what was happening there as consensual. It was awful. (Don’t worry, it’s completely up to date and fine now!)

For people with different abilities, it’s always going to be a challenge. We worked hard on this stuff, there was a lot of attention. We even had sex workers who specialise in people with different abilities. But it just is incredibly complicated. As you say, the age description is wildly inaccurate. It just doesn’t make sense: adult body and hormones, can they count, can they read, tell time, understand other people’s emotions, relate a story, react appropriately, read social cues, name body parts etc etc - all this is often at different levels that we relate to different ages.

If you feel it’s something you’d like to talk to your brother about yourself, be prepared to go over the consent part over and over and over forever and be prepared for explicit, excruciating detail. Practise the excruciating detail in your head! It’s not like with typical kids.

I’ll relate a funny conversation, one I still think back to because it was so funny. I worked in a four star hotel where we trained young people with developmental disabilities in various skills (think: mopping or chopping vegetables). I was helping some guests, when one of the guys (P) asks: “Gracer, please can I ask something?”

Me: “I’ll be right with you, I’m just helping these guests.”

P: “Good, because I want to finger a girl but HOW?”

The guest (laughing): “Good luck explaining HOW!”

In the conversation, of course I emphasised consent as the most important thing:

  • it’s a part of sex, which is always between people who really like each other
  • you can start by asking if it’s something she would like to try
  • it’s something you do together in private, in your bedroom
  • start with stroking somewhere else, like her arm, her cheek or her back and ask her if she likes that, then you always ask before moving somewhere else

Etc etc ad nauseum, but of course this is not what P wanted to know about because the same stuff is covered, ad nauseum, in their sex ed. So the “but HOW??” question keeps coming.

The answer is both explicit and annoyingly unhelpful, because it’s not something you can explain.
“It means touching and stroking where a girl’s pants would be.”
“But HOW?”
“Well you would have to ask if she likes what you are doing or you could ask her to show you what she likes. Remember to keep checking that she wants to do this.”
“Show me HOW?”
“No, because I don’t want to have sex with you. Sex is only between people who like each other and want to do that. Always make sure you both talk about what you like and only do things you both want.”

You get the idea. Name the body parts, stroking, cuddling, being kind and gentle and looking for signs the other person is not having fun. It’s funny and excruciating and it challenges your own ability to describe sex. As the guest said to me: “Good luck explaining HOW!”

As for the possibility of pregnancy, I can’t really imagine the group home is not actively involved. She might be on Implanon? Unless this place is an early 2000s Romanian psychiatric care facility with no washing machine, I expect they deal with this mundane/complicated aspect of our humanity already.

Wait is this GD? I guess you’re looking for a debate on the generalities and not for advice. I don’t think it’s something we can generalise in any meaningful way. Can you consent if you are intellectually/developmentally disabled? Sure. Probably. It’s complicated.