The Internet and the Return of Direct Democracy

Direct democracy is the ideal form of government. Every citizen gets an equal say in every action that the government performs and no piece of legislation can be passed without consent from the majority of the people whose lives will be most influenced by it. It’s self-rule at its finest. Sure, you may not get exactly what you want, but you can rest assured that the majority of the people in your community will get exactly what they want most of the time. What more can you ask for in a system of government? It’s tyranny of the masses, sure, but it’s a hell of a lot better than tyranny of the few. Or one.

Throughout my education the fact the direct democracy is impossible/improbable/unworkable has been reiterated countless times. I learned that the ancient Greeks practiced a form of direct democracy, albeit an exclusive form limited to land-owning, adult male citizens. I also learned that in some small towns in colonial America, townspeople would often assemble at town hall meetings to voice their opinions and have a say in how the town was run. Modern American representative democracy, I am told, is the closest we can get to direct democracy without utter chaos. You obviously can’t fit 280 million-something Americans into a giant town hall and take a hand count.

I have observed, in my stint as a modern American, that I have no say in the day-to-day actions of my government. Take this China mess, for instance. I would like very much for my president to issue a formal apology to the Chinese so we can all get on with our lives in peace. Unfortunately, nobody has asked me. I feel like an outcast in my own country – I must sit on my hands and do nothing while a small group of powerful politicians (who don’t necessarily have my best interest at heart) make all the important decision. Sure I can vote Bush and his cronies out of office in four years, but by then it will probably be too late.

I learned from a e-poll on yahoo.com (hardly scientific, I know) that roughly 80% of the people who voted (most of whom are Americans, I’m assuming), believe that we should apologize to China. Assuming that we do not apologize to China, how does one justify the fact that the American government acts in a manner that is counter to what the majority of the American population supports? Does the government really know better than its subjects? Isn’t that a justification for totalitarianism?

I guess what I’m trying to say, in my wordy, obtuse way, is that I believe in the ideal of direct democracy, and I think it’s even possible in modern society – with the Internet.

Here’s the plan: we hook every citizen up to the Internet with a secure connection to a town hall server. On the town hall servers they can participate in forums, discuss and debate issues, read about pros and cons, and when the time comes, vote. Every time the government needs to make a decision, they can open the polls for, say twelve hours. Every person who is interested can then register his or her opinion. When the polls close, the votes are tallied electronically and the simple majority wins. For instance, suppose that 72% of citizens vote that we should apologize to China. The government has no available course of action other than to issue a formal apology to the Chinese in accordance with majority rule. Legislation can be passed in a similar way. An elected body can decide the agenda for a particular time period, and interested citizens can read the proposed bills and vote.

In order for the system to work, people must participate. Obviously, not every person will have the time or the inclination to participate in the virtual town hall meetings, but I’m willing to bet that a lot of people will jump at the opportunity to have a genuine say in current events. And if you are pressed for time or just plain uninterested in policy making, you can chose only to vote on the issues that are important to you. Since access is simple and convenient – all you need to do is log into the server from your home computer – there’s no good excuse not to take an active role in government. And best of all, you’d regain a little bit of control over your life and your destiny!

Sure, there are details to work out. Security and privacy are issues – you don’t want special interest groups to be able to cast fraudulent votes. It’s also a good idea to have a secret ballot system so that some kind of Big Brother can’t keep track of your voting record or your political leanings. Perhaps you could keep the town hall servers decentralized so that no single political entity can control them. And you’d still need some kind of ruling body to make those split-second decisions that cannot be made at the polls.

So what do you say? Can it work? Am I a foolish dreamer with too much time on his hands?

I can’t see how giving every person input on every decision made in government is a good idea. Most people don’t have the time or inclination to understand every issue to be voted on. Should people be allowed to make decisions on the economy if they don’t have a basic understanding of business? Or make decisions on military spending without an understanding of military strategy and global politics?
At a national level, most issues are too complicated to be understood by regular people.

Take for example this China business. Most Americans oppinions vary from “just appologize” to “screw China” to “just go in and get our people back”. These same Americans most likely have no understanding of Chinese culture or politics or our political/economic relationship with China. Shouldn’t people who are educated in these matters handle them?
I think at a smaller level, direct democracy would work. Kind of like the town meetings you suggested. Decisions about the local high school, trash collection, water treatment, etc have a much greater affect on me than some political screw up 10000 miles away.

Malarky.

It’s a nice ideal, no doubt, and you’re right that the Internet would make it possible, but I would much rather live in a Republic than a Pure Democracy.

As much as Pure Democracy looks cool, do you really think Joe Schmoe who flips burgers is qualified to make decisions about nuclear test ban treaties and how to lend military aid to Taiwan?

Do you think he’s qualified to listen to and understand the seven hours of testimony Alan Greenspan gives to Congress several times per year?

Do you think the average middle-class family man has studied the geopolitical ramifications of the US’s role in NATO? In the UN? Do you think he has the ability or desire to read every single one of the bills that normally get argues over in any legislative body?

How would The People learn about issues that require legislation? Would people be called to testify before The People? Sorry, I got work to do. I can’t listen to three hours of hippies spewing sob stories about how polluted their duck pond is, or fundies ranting about how the ACLU is plotting their destruction.

How would legislative procedure work? Someone has to be in charge of the legislature. Who is it? How to bills get introduced? Who decides Steve Forbes’ economic bill is vote-worthy, and the crackhead-down-the-street’s, which consists of “Finest smack here!” is not?

Everybody asked you. You just haven’t realized it yet. You don’t get to give your answer until the next election, unfortunately. Regardless, I don’t think I’m qualified to make decisions about diplomatic relationships between a superpower and a huge Communist regime, do you? Seriously?

I think the support for this ideal comes from the belief that in Representative Democracies (Republics) the politicians are there to represent our desires.

They’re not.

They’re there to represent our interests. And often our interests don’t jive well with our desires. Well, that’s life. Personally, I’m going to go with the politician whose philosophy closely resembles mine, and trust him to understand and make decisions about these things.

I for one feel very secure in the fact that decisions about our nation are not decided by a popular majority vote. Our representative government is the only thing that ensures the interests of the minority. In the case of racial minorities, for example, how are their interests protected. Or what about small business owners? How do we insure their safety and rights? An idealist’s response to this might be that people will look out for eachother. I think, however, that history has proven otherwise. Another person might respond that a minority’s opinion doesn’t matter because it is in the minority. That, though, sounds like dictatorship and not true representative government.

When thinking about this issue, consider the pure volume of legislation that passes through Congress. And your state legislature. And your city council. Do you really expect people to pay attention to all of the political action going on around them? It seems to me that in the system described above, each person would only be able to participate as an informed voter in a tiny percentage of the political conflicts that take place in this country. This immediately becomes dangerous, because it essentially means that most people won’t be voting on any specific piece of legislation. Thus, the vote could be controlled by any group that could mobilize a large number of voters. In many cases, I think, extremist groups whose opinions are contrary to those of the general public would be able to push their legislation through because they had enough money to organize voters.

In Canada, the leader of the Alliance party while running for office made the promise that any issue that could garner around 5% of the population’s signatures would be put to a referendum. A Canadian commedian started a spoof campaign and got enough e-signatures for a refferendum for the leader to change his name from Stockwell Day to Doris Day. This demonstrated the ridiculousness of the promise. The government would be innundated with garbage in short order.

We elect and pay our politicians to be experts in their respective fields so that they can make better decisions than us. I’ll go with friedo choose politicians that have values that are closest to yours.

I do however agree with you in a limited respect. A democracy should have flexibility and some means of public input. I think the internet will have a big impact on this in the future, I’m just not sure how.

I can understand your arguments concerning the immense quantity and complexity of the legislation that people would need to vote on, but I’m a little surprised that some of you would take the position that people in general are not smart enough for self-governance. Shame on you! Sure, you can show me a couple of morons who aren’t fit to tie their own shoes much less make important decisions about the country, but I would hope that their votes would be drowned out by the vast majority of people who are reasonably intelligent and earnest – and worthy of self-rule. You guys are a bunch of cynics! I don’t think I’ll let you live in my democracy…

Damn straight I’m a cynic.

I’m going to make a wild-ass assumption here, and I apologize profusely if I am wrong: I am assuming that you’re kinda young, like in High School maybe? I think when you experience enough of the Real World, you will learn that, yes, the vast, vast majority of people are overwhelmingly stupid.

Sucks, but true.

I don’t think they mean so much that people aren’t smart, it’s just that the general population is uneducated in the decisions that they would be voting on. Representitives who make decisions usually know a bit about the subject in question, or they have many different advisors who are experts on the topic and can lead them to making a proper decision. I’d estimate that everyone in the country would have to take approximately 30 years of college so that they could be well-informed enough to make educated decisions on the wide variety of topics that would have to be voted on.

… which pretty much proves my point above. Either 80% of the people taking the poll were isolationists or they are completely ignorant about the subject at hand. And i don’t think there are that many isolationists …

Yup, specialization and all that. I wouldn’t expect the minister of fisheries to be able to do my job any more than I can do theirs.

On a related note, have you heard how much money the internet is going to save the government? In Canada it is estimated we will be able to save tens of billions of dollars. We will be able to at least double or triple our yearly budget surplus! The are worldwide conferences taking place now on this very subject.

Your assumption is not far from the truth. Assuming you weren’t trying to denigrate me, I must congratulate you on your deductive skills. I’ve had more than a few run-ins with my more jaded and cynical elders who, for the most part, parrot the same line: “You just wait, sunny boy. You may be idealistic and open-minded now, but a few years down the road after life has beaten you down a few notches you’ll see things our way.” I plan to resist, although it’s anybody’s guess how long I’ll hold out.

I just can’t agree with you that the vast majority of people are overwhelmingly stupid. That smells more like a bitter value judgement than a reflection of reality. Perhaps the vast majority of people disagree with your opinions, which makes them less than intelligent in your mind. You’ll find a fairly straightforward bell-curve of human intelligence in this country — a few fall at the stupid end and a few fall at the smart end but most people are somewhere in the middle, which I think is a sufficient level of intelligence to make decisions about policy, as long as information from all sides of the debate is available. And it’s always possible to skew that curve with a good education system.

Not to be vindictive or anything, but look at the current President of the United States. He seems like a man who falls squarely in the middle of that bell curve, and yet he holds the most powerful office in the land. If he can make critical, historically important decisions on a daily basis, then the average American certainly can!

You obviously don’t fall into that 80% who believe we should apologize to the Chinese. I don’t believe that those who don’t share my opinions are ignorant. I think most of them know exactly what they want and how to get it. Take for instance the Christian fundamentalists (friedo, I hope you don’t mind if I barge into your field of expertise). They are neither deluded nor stupid. They want a Christian theocracy and they know exactly how to go about turning America into one. I do not desire the same outcome as the Christian fundamentalists, but I do not fault them for acting in a manner that will facilitate their desired outcome. Who can say that what the fundamentalists want is wrong and what I want is right? Nobody can. All we can do is hope that the majority of people will come to a consensus about what they want (which presumably is not a Christian theocracy), and structure a government based on the utilitarian principle of providing the majority of the people with what they want.

[disclaimer] This issue is the one thing which is guaranteed to push my buttons.

Having thought about this for years (long before the internet made it at least theoretically feasible to do) I find myself in a bit of a quandary. Like many posters I can see problems in allowing every voter to vote on all legislation, for much the same reasons as they cite. That said, I think we could go much further down the road of electronic referenda, with the 4/5 yearly elections (I’m based in the UK, so it’s a bit different from the US) deciding on which major party gets to choose the issues on which referenda are held.

I’d be a lot happier (and this isn’t rhetoric) if we were honest enough to stop calling what we have a democracy. God help you choose if you are a fox-hunt supporting socialist who is anti-euro - for instance.

What gets me is these toady politicians (of whatever persuasion) telling me they’ve got my mandate for the 176 provisions in their manifesto, when I, like a lot of people, would have to compromise to a very great extent in order to vote (which I don’t).

One serious problem with internet voting - right now, there is not a good way to do it. If you send your vote to a machine, there are several issues:

  1. Is your boss or someone powerful standing behind you making sure you vote the way (s)he wants you to vote?

  2. Is a hacker intercepting your vote and changing it?

  3. Is a hacker pretending to be you, or is it really you?

  4. Is that same hacker going to break into the machine collecting votes and change the totals?

  5. Is that same evil hacker going to run denial of service attacks on the voting machines on the net, so that they won’t be able to accept any votes from anyone?

And all those assume the software is bug free, the programmers didn’t sneak in some sort of bias to “adjust” the totals, and the computer won’t crash. Furthermore I think we can guarantee that someone is going to try pretty hard to do all five of them. And those are just the problems I came up with in about the time it took me to type this…

As far as people being stupid, who was it that said his coworker said that George Bush sure looked better this time around? She hadn’t even realized that this was his son…it’s way to easy to put a few inflammatory stories in the paper, most people won’t do their research to find out if those inflammatory stories are true or false. Hell, they even found out that the stories about Clinton taking stuff from Air Force One were completely made up - in the back of the Washington Post was an artice where several Republicans flat out admitted they just made it up and fed it to the papers. Everyone knows the story now, but who really knows that it is admittedly and provably false? Joe Blow voter can get let around by his nose pretty damn easily…

I think that the internet does show great promise for getting citizens more involved in government, and good encryption software (open source of course) should be able to surmount most of the concerns brought up by evan. But I believe that completely direct democracy is not a goal we should be working towards. Our society does not have a problem with having people specializing in medicine, and only those people treating the sick. It does not have a problem with people specializing in computer programs, and having those people write computer programs. What’s so bad then about people specializing in politics, and the majority of decisions being made by those people? Yeah, individuals should have some say, just as individuals should have some say about their medical care. But I think we should leave the details to the professionals.

incitatus, it’s not merely the older you get, the more cynical you get, but the older you get, the more you realize how damn complicated everything is. You cannot possibly master all the intricacies on all issues.

Dubya may not be the sharpest penny in the sandbox, but he has a panel of experts advising him before every decision he makes. Something most of us don’t have access too. It’s rather interesting actually, I read an article that describes the governing method GW prefers. The republicans are making quite a big deal about him being the only president ever with an MBa and apparently he favours running the country like a business. It makes you wonder though, because I heard he wasn’t such a good businesman.

I would like to disagree on different terms. As someonh who is usually not in the majority on many issues, I would be extremely threatened by unadulterated majoritarianism. It suits me and those like me very well that politicians run interference in the legislature, preventing an outright trampling of my point of view. I am all for political education and empowerment, but I am not a big fan of national referenda.

Would that be mob rule or Ross Perot’s electronic town hall???

The “return” of, eh? Well, nevermind that.

Direct democracy is, you might note, the political equivalient of mob rule. I assume you mean, “direct democracy and majority wins,” of course, though I suppose it is possible to set up other standards of “winning.” And this is assuming that people are fit to govern themselves.

Which I think they are, or rather, would be if the society were already geared in such a way as to promote some form of rational self-interest and included a large portion of brainwashing to ensure that most people thought the same things were rational.

As it stands, though, I think we can see that this is not the case. I’m not even going to point any fingers, just simply state that, given any newspaper across the country, we can find fantastic examples of humans not being able to manage their own problems, none-the-less the problems of a whole city, township, state, or country.

I am not entirely comfortable with the thought of mob rule, and so a representative democracy suits me fine. I don’t see large problems with the way our form of government is run (even though it isn’t, I hear, a democracy [sub]source: pledge of alliegence haha[/sub] ;)) in principle, though as is customary with humans the practice of this principle sometimes leaves things to be desired.

Hmmm. :smiley: Works for me! Though maybe using a crusty punk band from yesteryear won’t help me get my point across to you young whippersnappers.

America has, I believe, just under 300 million people living in it. If your goal is efficient and accurate decisions, asking them their opinion on the matter is far from achieving success.

No denigration was intended. You are certainly one of the most articulate young folks I know. Now, don’t get me wrong here. I’m not saying idealism is bad and that everyone should be a cynic 100% of the time. Ideals are important; I have lots of my own, but I do think it’s important to recognize that ideals are, well ideals. They are models to be respected, but they are abstractions. They are the way we interpret and understand reality, which is always far from the ideal. People like to make patterns and abstractions for things, and they’re willing to forget that reality doesn’t perfectly conform to that ideal in exchange for the comfort of the pattern itself.

I think ideals are important, but people need to get a dose of reality too.

BTW: I’m already far too cynical for my age anyway…I’m barely old enough to be a Congressman!

I’m not sure I understand your point. Surely by definition ideals are, well, ideals? I.e. some better thing/state/whatever which we are striving for? It seems to me [sub]and forgive me for putting words in your mouth[/sub] like you’re defining an ideal as some construct which sounds good in theory, but heaven forfend we should actually implement. If it’s not an ideal, it’s … something else.

But isn’t reality (geez, we’re getting mighty metaphysical here) that state in which we strive towards our ideals?

Sorry to belabour the point, but if someone thinks that - for instance - more direct democracy in some form or other would somehow not be a good thing, then almost by definition it’s not an ideal.

Now, maybe what we’re talking about is a meta-ideal; an ideal world in which the ideals you’re talking about could and would work.

Excuse me. My head has just disappeared where the sun doesn’t shine and I have to find a torch.