The subtitle says these boards are about fighting ignorance and to me that means religion so here goes one doozy:
King Herod is an actual historical figure who lived about 73 BC - 4 BC. His death occurred at the beginning of a Passover that was some time preceded by a lunar eclipse that happened the night he executed Rabbis Judas and Matthias and their pupils who had smashed the golden bird symbol for Rome which he had placed on the temple he had restored. This is according to the historian, Joseph ben Matthias also known as Flavius Josephus (37/38 AD --around 100 AD).
Ernest Martin located a full eclipse on January 10, 1 BC which occurred 12 1/2 weeks prior to Passover, however Herod’s successors Antipas, Philip, and Archelaus all appear to have taken their reigns in 4 BC and the chronology of datable events in the Roman Empire best fit with Josephus’ description of the circumstances of Herod’s death give a date of 4 BC. There was a 40% partial eclipse March 13, 4 BC which would have been difficult to see, but could have possibly been calculated in Josephus time and used by him to reference the death date.
Jupiter(the planet of royalty) and Saturn(protector of Israel) underwent three conjunctions in 7 BC in the constellation Pisces (associated by ancient Babylonian or Persian magi with the nation of Israel), not of which would have appeared as a bright star, but the astronomical events would have caught the eye of any attentive magi of the time and as their definition of a star would have differed from the scientific definition of today, they may have referred to the astronomical events as stars. The two planets were found again in the constellation Pisces as well as Mars on Feb 6, 6 BC.
Michael Molnar found that Jupiter underwent an occultation with the moon in the constellation Aries on April 17, 6 BC and again on December 19, 6 BC. Aries is a ram/lamb which would be associated with Israel due to their sacrifices or by Christians with Jesus. The April 17 occultation occurred near the sun during the day and wouldn’t have been seen, but given greater attention due to the previous astronomical events any good magi following Jupiter and tracking the moon would have known that this would occur and that on April 17 when this would occur, it would be “in the east”. August 23 Jupiter reversed its apparent motion and “went before” anyone following it until it “stood over” being stationary in the transition of its apparent motion right on the second occultation of December 19.
William’s Comet Catalog of 1871 identifies a comet visible in 5 BC It was visible from Mar 10 to Apr 27. Such a comet would disappear and reappear as it moved behind the sun which does correspond to Matthew witch inferred that it did so.
Finally, Chinese astronomers recorded a new star, a nova, in the constellation Capricorn visible March to April of 5 BC, for over 70 days.
Herod was an evil warmongering king that had many of his own family killed including two of his sons Aristobulus in 7 BC and Antipater in 4 BC. The later may also have sought the life of any prophesied king of Israel accounting for Matthews’s statement that those who had sought the life of Jesus had died.
However, the slaughter of the babies under two years by Herod old has no basis in history. It is utterly mythical and can be traced back to Krishna, another former Christ story.
There was also no great taxation of Israel wherein folks had to return to their birthplaces and the only census by Quirinius when he was the actual governor of Syria was conducted in (6 - 7)AD. On the other hand he did established a seat of government in Syria, including Palestine, from 10 BC to 7 BC in which he would have been responsible for the census of Romans, not Jews, that took place in 7 BC. The new testament gives two contradictory genealogies for Joseph. If they are fictitious and Joseph was a Roman then he could have taken part in the census, but such a census still would not have required the participants to return to their homeland and would have been finished prior to the (6-5)BC astronomical events. Apparently the nativity is also a fiction. It can be traced to the Egyptian mythology where Meh(Meri, Mary) whose consort was Seb (lord or god - Seb, Yo-Seb, Joseph) had a virgin birth of Horus in a cave or manger amongst the beasts under a star, were visited by three magi bearing gifts, and then fled from the serpent Herrut who was opposed to Horus. It appears that someone drawing on the similarity between Herrut and Herod and given the astrological signs decided to fabricate a reason that such a Horus/Krishna/Christ type being would be born amongst beasts about that time. Recalling that there was a census conducted around that time and such were related to taxes, the Horus story was recreated in terms of an Israeli Messiah born in a manger due to no room during a tax. Here we find the birth of modern Christianity.
The subtitle says these boards are about fighting ignorance and to me that means religion so here goes one doozy:
You catch more flies with honey there, friend.
Yeah I guess I just loath to be deceitful even though this makes me blunt.
I do not see a debate, here, although I guess it stays in this Forum as a form of anti-witnessing.
Basically, so what? All the facts in your post have been mentioned repeatedly on these boards (some of the star stuff not to the same detail). The issues of there having been no world wide census, the lack of evidence for the Slaughter of the Innocents, the errors in the dating of the claim for the Nativity, the separate and conflicting genealogies of Jesus (and the probability that all of the above were literary devices), have all been discussed in Staff Reports and any number of threads, both in this Forum and in GQ. In fact the only new stuff you bring are the (irrelevant to your post, anyway), “Jo-Sep” silliness that you insist on repeating from the Theosophy hoax site.
So what huh - If you didn’t have an interest you wouldn’t have responded, thats so what. And if it hadn’t proved you wrong you would have responded with more than the invarid argument of aw thats just sillyness and hoaxes.
I responded because you posted a non-debate in the Great Debates Forum and I want other posters to know that I have seen your post before I get inundated with Reports saying that you have posted in the wrong Forum. It is just a way of keeping my mailbox clean.
As to claims that you have “proven” anyone wrong, you have still been afraid to post any corroboration for your statements from independent sources. As long as you continue to rely on the hoax of Theosophy with no supporting outside evidence, the rest of us are simply going to point at you and laugh.
We have had folks “proving” that the moon landing was a hoax, “proving” that circumcision destroys a man’s mind, and “proving” any number of odd claims. You are simply aligning yourself with that sort of poster (which you are, of course, free to do).
Not to mention from reading the Bible, there is nothing that precludes the Star of Bethlehem from being a miracle visible to only the Magi. In fact, a Christian basically has to assume this was the case. If it was visible to all, it is inconceivable anything THAT unusual wouldn’t have been recorded by astromers throughout Europe and Asia. HOW could say the Roman historians never have seen this worth mentioning? While they wouldn’t have had any clue that it announced the birth of the son of God, wouldn’t they have recorded "visible to all was a unique star that had the odd property it didn’t move along with the rest of the stars in the sky (like a nova would)?
Tom, your patience is admirable, and your restraint is fast becoming legend.
We’re not permitted to use our minds or common sense anymore? That will definitely take most of the fun out of religious debates.
Huh. And all this time I thought video killed the Jesus star.
Actually I think Paul’s Mass Marketing killed the Jesus Star.
Since our sun is the closest star to earth, a planet or comet is not a star; to have a star that came close to earth so the Magi could follow it to a certain cave (or stable) would seem to me to be quite a task! I know in those days all the lights in the sky were considerd stars, but would a supreme being inspire one to write of a star being close to earth and not call it by it’s true name?
Yeah, because the Bible was originally written in English, doncha know? :rolleyes:
Further down the thread, you will find more threads linking to even earlier threads…Enjoy.
Regardless of the Language…Aramacic, Greek or Latin It would be quite a thing to follow any star to a certain place and then to hang over a certain manger is quite a streach. At noon the sun,(our closest star) or even to follow the moon to my house would really take some doing! The New Testement wasn’t in existence for over 300 years. It was scattered writings in different languages.
However, your initial point falters on three separate points:
While some (not really large) contingent of Christians believe that God dictated the Torah/Pentateuch to Moses, only a much tinier group actually holds that God provided the authors of the Gospels with the specific words used to describe each event so your “supreme being” inspiring the author to use a word that was not the “true name” of the phenomenon starts with a false premise;
Most Christians recognize that the tale in the Gospel is an example of a theophanic stylistic device, and are not that worried about whether it actually happened as described;
Those who hold to its physical reality can always note that a God who can do all things could make the phenomenon visible to magi and shepherds while blinding wicked monarchs and other people not yet called to witness at that time to the same event. In other words, once we’re into the world of the miraculous, trying to catch out problems based on language become a pointless exercise.
I see now, this God likes to play games,he wants all people to believe in Him ,but he makes sure some do not! What a guy! He likes to go through a lot of things to save a few people like killing everthing on earth to save a few people and a couple of animals, he blinds some so they can’t see a star that would hearld a supernatural birth. No wonder so many do not believe in Him. And he knew this when he created them…sorry it makes no sense to me. What actually happened at all is in question.
Sorry. You’ll have to take up your complaint with one of the limited number of Christians, (admittedly among a higher percentage within the U.S.) who share your views toward their beliefs. Trying to attack beliefs that people do not actually hold is known as a strawman argument and, since I have already pointed out that the beliefs you are attacking are not held by a majority of people–and certainly not by me, it seems odd that you would address your complaints regarding those beliefs to me.
The notion that scripture is literally true is a minority position within Christianity.
The notion that Christians take their faith from scripture (whether understood literally or with more nuance) is held by a somewhat larger number of Christians, but still not by such large groups as Catholics, Orthodox, the Anglican Communion, and some related groups.
I was not addressing the beliefs of most Christians,just the one’s who take the Bible literally. I do not consider it an attack on their beliefs, just a questioning of how such an event could possiblly happen. Most of the Christians that I know are level headed people and few are like Pat Robertson and his ilk. I am sorry if I came across as an attacker, that was not my intention,just pointing out how I reason things. I am not a Christian but I respect a person’s right to their own beliefs,just trying to understand their thinking.
True enough. But shit still works best.