In just the links above, he says that Israel is frequently a monstrosity and a war crime, and that Judaism requires Jews to support it. I.e., Judaism is frequently monstrous and criminal. And its members are evil cultists. I suppose there’s a way to parse that so it’s not anti-semitic, but that’s threading a pretty fine needle, it seems to me.
Of course I do - I fucking typed it. What do you think it means?
Jew’s thinking they deserve some kind of special dispensation, based on some ancient crumbling texts, is kind of the root cause of the situation from my analysis.
So, “Yes”.
No.
Which shows that you actually know fuck all about which you speak. Being the ‘chosen people’ is not about special dispensations, from God or from anyone else.
And, FYI, the current situation is based not at all on ancient crumbling texts, and is in fact based on Europeans carving nations out of the Middle East 70-odd years ago.
What “special dispensations”? What do you think we think we have a right to?
I’d say that was a matter of interpretation.
The Europeans carved it out because there was this group who were picked on by a guy called Hitler( although make a note - the cripples, homosexuals and gypsies didn’t get their own land to set up in!), who picked on them basically because they were JEWS - people who had been trumpeting their “Jewishness” and special relationship with The Creator since time immemorial.
Follow the dots and the picture becomes quite apparent.
You really have no idea what you’re talking about, do you?
You realize that Jews started settling here, independently, in the 19th Century and that there was, for all effects and purposes, a Jewish state here in all but name *before *the outbreak of WW2? No, you probably don’t.
I’m not saying you have a right to anything.
The “special dispensation” was being allowed to set up your own state. How many other ‘displaced peoples’ have been allowed to do that?
You idiot, Israel wan’t founded by Holocaust refugees, it was founded by the Jewish population of Mandatory Palestine who had been building their country for half a century. And we weren’t “allowed” anything - we drove you Limey bastards out.
I’m sorry, but I don’t attach the same importance to a “Jewish state” as you do.
That’s right; your treasured “state” was founded on bloodshed, so what’s a bit more, eh?
ps. And before you say “Weren’t all countries/states founded on bloodshed?”, yours was in recent history and is still continuing. Not a very good example to be setting to other displaced people, really.
The modern state of Israel was not allowed to come into existence because the Jews are, in their own doctrine, the ‘chosen people.’ This is where your logic turns to quackery. There was no decision on the part of others that because the Jews say they’re ‘chosen’ well, we might as well give them a country then.
Wait, what? The Jews had been trumpeting their “Jewishness”!?!? How? Please enlighten me the ways in which Jews had been trumpeting their Jewishness.
And it almost looks like you’re saying that the Jews to some degree asked for it because they were rubbing other people’s noses in the fact that the Jews were Jews and others weren’t. In fact, not almost, it does. I’m at a loss for words.
Every state was founded on bloodshed.
And really, should we compare the histories of our two great nations? Because I can’t think of anything bad we’ve done that you haven’t done 10 times worse.
Every state and every country was founded on war and bloodshed in history - the Jews just arrived late to the party. When it’s their turn to fight for a patch of the desert, the rest of the world piously wags their fingers and tells the Jews that they need to stop being so barbaric.
It seems to be Israel alone that is the recipient of so much vigorous condemnation from everyone else. Where are all the people protesting the Kosovars for “occupying” land that “belongs” to Serbia? Where are all the people protesting Britain for “occupying” Northern Ireland, land which “belongs” to the Irish (outside of Northern Ireland itself.) And where are the people protesting the fact that you aren’t even allowed to be Jewish in Saudi Arabia, let alone be homosexual or wear short skirts or listen to punk rock or whatever. And Israel actually has Muslims on their parliament. Is there any Arab country that has Jews in its parliament?
Ironically the Jews are the only people I’ve ever seen who break ranks and criticize Israel’s policies so readily. I have yet to see any Arab group who says, “yes, the Israeli occupation is wrong, BUT the real problem is the Arabs’ unwillingness to recognize Israel’s right to exist, and their stubbornness on this issue is the true impediment to the peace process?”
And don’t even say that all the Israel hate is just because of the settlements or the occupation of West Bank and Gaza. If Israel completely withdrew from those areas there would still be tons of people saying that they should give parts of Israel away, and there would still be a whole horde of people claiming that the entire state of Israel even with the pre-1967 borders does not have any right to exist.
Really, I don’t think you should be throwing in any comments about Serbia/Croatia. Your government doesn’t have the best record regarding giving a shit about their plight.
As for the situation in Northern Ireland, if our army had been bulldozing Belfast flat under tanks, the British people would have been protesting in their hundreds of thousands.
Has it occurred to you that the “Jews…who break ranks”, do so because they allow their humanity to come before their Jewishness?
According to wikipedia, Iran.
Don’t interpret that as me being a fan of Iran or defending them.
Although, to them they’re not “Arab” they’re “Persian.” I’m on the fence as to whether one is a subset of the other or not.
He didn’t say that. My point is that this looks like a bunch of Israel supporters calling an anti-Zionist anti-Semitic as part of a routine pro-Israel propaganda effort.
Part of the problem in calling someone anti-Semitic is that it is a clear evocation of the KKK and the Nazis and pogroms, etc. It is smearing that person with blood libels that they had nothing to do with when their point is that our government (the US or their local govt) should not be supporting with our tax dollars and diplomats, the repugnant policies of Israel.
So my point is, prove he is anti-Semitic or address his policy criticisms, or put him on ignore.
The UK has been far more brutal to the Irish than Israel has ever been to the Palestinians. And besides, why do we have to withdraw from 100% of the Territories when you haven’t withdrawn from 100% of Eire?
I can only speak for myself, but in my 9 years on the board, I can’t recall once calling a Doper an anti-semite. Feel free to contradict me.
They’re not.
I haven’t seen those quotes, I’ve seen the summaries. And I think that you are mischaracterizing what I’ve read of his.
The OP makes the point thru summary that Judaism now pretty much expects Jews to support Israel at least when around the goyim. That is my limited and selected experience. The OP also summarizes that this has a bad effect on the public image of Judaism. It does. And if pro-Jewish people want to stop the bad effect on the public image of Judaism, calling someone who raises a question anti-Semitic doesn’t help.
You say that there is a way to parse it that it’s not anti-Semitic, and I think that is what Sevastapol has done. He’s a critic. And there are those that would rather dismiss him entirely as an anti-Semite than deal with the points he is making.
If the point of this board is to fight ignorance, ad hominems are appropriate here in the Pit, but anti-Semitism is a pretty ugly one when it is used to shut up a person who is anti-Zionist.
Do we criticize the foreign or domestic policies of any other nation by using language like “pollution” or “evil cults” or by pointing out, ominously, that a few high-ranking members of American government are Jewish?
If pointing it out is evocative of the ancient traditions and institutions of anti-Semitism, well then, that’s because when it comes to Sevastopol’s ranting, not much has changed since those bad old days.