The just try harder, or "lazy welfare bum" mentality in Canada

These are phrases far too often used against anyone that speaks badly about capitalism. But that’s a terrible oversimplification of the issues in these countries.

Also, don’t call me a communist, or socialist… Difficult as it may be to fathom, there is more than 2-4 possible systems for government. It’s just that when we hit capitalism (the one that works best for those in power), they stopped trying to brainstorm new methods.

To the point…

People that are raised by low income parent/s are more often the victims of physical, or sexual abuse when growing up, and even abuse/avoidance from their peers due things like wearing out of fashion clothing, and/or not having access to all the latest fads, or being able to afford certain events and such. That abuse/avoidance can lead to feelings of worthlessness, and difficulty making friends, which can in turn lead to general social difficulties which not only compounds the difficulty of making and keeping friends down the road, but also in job interviews. Self confidence goes downhill in all aspects, and it’s not like you can just tell people “don’t think that way”.

When people go through all of this (and more) in their lives, many if not most of them will end up dealing with depression. This is notably different from the sadness that one may feel after someone close to them dies, because the harsh effects from it statistically last longer, and depression is like a snake eating it’s own tail, it feeds off of itself, and generally does not go away on it’s own.

Because by that point, the person has it so deep within their core mentality, that the only way to get them away from that is to give them a chance; a real opportunity that will make them feel deep within themselves, that they have value and worth. And I mean something real, not just a couple extra shifts at the fast food joint that they’re working at the age of 30+. But nobody wants to give these people a chance, because they’re always seen as nothing more than a liability. The few people that will give these people a real chance, also often fail to realise that because of all that they’ve been through, there’s a much higher chance that they will blow it the first (or even first few) times around, despite trying their best). Because for people with depression; the amount of effort that it takes to do anything beyond the full time job that they have to work just to survive, is somewhere around equivalent to a non-depressed person doing the same, with only an hour or two of sleep per night.

What most depressed people need, is the one thing that society has been geared not to give them; which boils down to companionship, trust, love, affection, someone to believe in them, and even support them along the way. But what they get is, people telling them that they just aren’t working hard enough, that they need to believe in themselves, that no one is going to help them, or even that age old phrase “no one is going to love you if you don’t love yourself”.

However, for many people going through depression, that is a complete oxymoron, because if no one loves them, then it is a near impossibility for them to love themselves, because they don’t have anything within them that tells them that they deserve love. It’s like telling someone that’s got something stuck in their throat to just stop choking… But it doesn’t work that way. There comes a point in many people’s lives in which they simply can’t help themselves, and are in need of external help, otherwise to be doomed to a state of sad lonely mediocrity. I don’t mean “professional help”; while I believe that psychology can be helpful to some extent, telling someone that’s lonely and depressed, to seek professional help, is like giving someone a Tylenol for a brain tumor… Short of medications like antidepressants and such, there are a relative handful of psychologists and psychiatrists that can legitimately help people through chronic/severe depression, but most just spout the same after school special bullshit that we’ve all heard a thousand times. Basically telling people to go out and do all the shit that we don’t do because we lack the confidence, self worth, and social skills to do so. Even if we did take the suggestions, we (generally) would not be successful because of the things I just mentioned.

I just want to get ahead of one thing before replies roll in;
I don’t want to hear “but I knew this guy that was poor and did lots of work and got rich…”. Obviously it’s not an impossibility, but let’s face it, short of knowing that person personally, the only reason you even heard about them is because they were in the news, or on YouTube, or in some trending post or somesuch, and the only reason that they were in any of those, is because they were a statistical improbability. And even in those cases, more often than not, the person had that one person that believed in them all the way, and/or were good looking, charismatic, or just extremely lucky. But either way, these people are not the rule, they are the exception to the rule.

One more thought. How is someone that put any amount of money into Microsoft in the 1980’s, any less lazy than someone that’s busted their ass on construction and fast food work their entire life…?

This is the major issue with capitalism; the entire mainstream mentality of “that sounds like a YOU problem”. Like, no one wants to help anyone else unless they’re getting something out of it. This system creates selfish, greedy individuals.

Money doesn’t buy happiness, and that’s proven by the fact that (on a ratio scale) Mexico has a lower suicide rate than Canada(hell, Canada is only 4 down the list from North Korea…)…

Couple other fun facts;
In Mexico, familia means everything. You live and you die for your familia. In Canada, Family is people that you’re biologically related to, and generally go have semi-awkward visits with them on holidays, where you talk about nothing, because people are so scared to socialize in this country…

In Russia Comrade is a tight bond between two people. You would do anything for a Comrade, even die for them. In Canada we have ‘friends’, but the word is more a synonym for acquaintance, as more often than not, a so-called friend will ditch you the second you become inconvenient to them in any way, or embrace any form of ideals that they don’t agree with, or even just after you stop acting, and start to be yourself.

After reading this, I’m still not entirely sure 1) what your primary point was, and 2) what this has to do with Politics & Elections.

If you’re trying to say that some people face a significant disadvantage in the race to success (as commonly measured), particularly those with mental health issues, then yes, I agree. And I also agree that it would be unfair to accuse those of being “lazy” just because they struggle to cope with those issues and thus have a harder time achieving that “success”.

If your main point was something else, then you’ve lost me.

Yea, you pretty much got the jest of it. Mental health but also general issues that often come from being raised by low income individuals. I’ve personally dealt with both. Unspecified autism wasn’t diagnosed until this past year and I’m 39.

Capitalism is not a government it is an economic system.
People in general can only take what they earn. If they have a background or mental illness that limits that they can do, it limits what they can earn. Your background or mental illness may not be your fault but it is your problem. Expecting society to change to adapt to you instead of the other way around is crazy.

Depression is a serious illness, but the good news is that there have never been better treatments. There are lots of antidepressants that work reasonably well, as well as other treatments like magnets, ketamine, or electric shock. The tough thing about depression is that the person who has it needs to fight against it but the disease itself saps the motivation to fight. However, it is your life and while you can get better, only you can do it.

may not be his fault? Since when do people choose their background or to have a mental illness, much less which one?

You and I have had this discussion before in another thread, but no treatments for depression have been proven than 50% effective to relieve depression and the ones that do don’t improve it for over a long term. “Just do this and everything will be fine” is not an answer, especially when the “this” is not reliably proven or even available if you can’t afford it or don’t have the right insurance.

To the larger point, your assumptions and beliefs are a damning reflection of exactly what the OP is talking about. To ‘lift yourself up by your bootstraps’ first you have to have boots.

Your attitudes and smugness about your choices are precisely the problems the OP is highlighting.

I’m going to stop now before I breach into Pit territory.


Don’t get me wrong, I’m not a fan of the precious snowflake generation, and what it’s doing to society, but there’s a difference between mental illness, and people that make up genders, then demand the rest of us to honor their pronouns. You, and your general mentality is exactly what is wrong with this country, and this system. It breeds hate and frustration.

Yeah… exactly… lol… That is one of the most ignorant responses I’ve seen about mental illness in a long time. Like that whole “why should the rest of us have to suffer because…” mentality… Like really… Do explain to me in detail just how badly the billionaires would suffer, if they were forced to only being millionaires? I would surely weep at their loss…

I’m surprised you didn’t point out that the “treatments” included electro shock therapy… Not only is that inhumane, but I’m fairly certain that it went the way of the dinosaurs long ago (along with lobotomies…).

As for antidepressants, they are not a cure by any stretch. No medication can cure depression; only help to make it easier. Also, a lot of them don’t even work. I’ve been on 2-3 different ones in the past, and they mostly just made me have to piss, a lot… It was quite annoying, so I quit those. The one medication I’m on now is the best working medication I’ve taken in my life, but without relief from the things that caused the depression in the first place, it only really helps me to feel good enough to make it through the day.


In the interest of accuracy, electroconvulsive therapy is readily available in most areas with a hospital that has in-patient psychiatric care and a psychiatrist who has been trained and certified in ECT. Most of the training occurs in other first world medical centers so those doctors doing ECT in the US are few and far between.

Modern ECT bears no resemblance to the common depiction as seen in “One Few Over The Cuckoo’s Nest”. It’s done humanely under anesthesia and with careful care before, during and after. Most often it is offered if every other type of treatment has been tried without success for refractory, treatment-resistant depression. For many elderly patients ECT can be safer than anti-depressants, side effects-wise. I speak from extensive personal experience.

Thankfully, you are right. Lobotomies have been been soundly vilified and are a thing of the past.

Sure, I’m not a doctor myself, but the brain is still the most complex part of the human body. Last I checked, we still have a relatively low understanding of it. I just don’t believe that it’d be a stretch to think that, in another hundred (or so) years, ECT may be seen in the same light as EST. I mean, back when we did that, and lobotomies, we genuinely thought that those were the best methods for treatment. Or perhaps I’m wrong and it’ll be the precursor to something much more advanced and more effective (like the cordless, or video phones were to the modern smartphone). But then this is all getting a bit off topic. so in the interest of not derailing my own thread, that’s all I’ll add to that branch of discussion.

ECT, Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation, and ketamine have all been shown to have great promise at treating resistant depression with as much as 80% of people showing improvement.

Feeling sorry for yourself and blaming society for your ills is a sure fire way to not get better. Its your life and you can decide for yourself whether to fight the disease or not, no skin off my nose.

I do try to steer clear of direct profanity, as it is below me, but so are you, so fuckit. You’re an idiot… Find me a cure for autism… Jesus… Forget this country, people like you are what’s wrong with the human race. If you’re so hateful and self centered, please just go end yourself, I’m sure no one would miss you, and your riches would be redistributed to someone more worthy (with any luck).

Oh, and while we’re at it, Mr high and mighty, what great contribution have YOU made to humanity, besides hogging up resources that could be used by anyone more worthy of them… ProTip; trolling internet forums doesn’t count.