The lance strongarm transgender bathroom and poly marriage extravaganza thread!

[iiandyiiii]

@lance_strongarm

But I thought the presence of trans people had no effect on them at all. Never mind - if you want to call the requirement that somebody actually knows, and tolerates (far short of any requirement that they acknowledge or respect them - one need do neither to go to the bathroom in the same room as someone else) a “privilege,” even when they can go back to their old attitude toward them as soon as they zip up, then sure, call that a privilege if you really want to.

It’s not a real privilege, hence the quotes – the anti-trans bigots think they’re losing a privilege, but they’re not really losing anything.

But again, it’s still a bit weird to say that’s a privilege. Is white privilege the ability to not acknowledge or respect the existence of other races? Just their existence? Do trans people suffer from other people not acknowledging that they exist? Do they even want to be acknowledged? It seems a transgender person wants to be thought of as the same as everyone else of that gender and NOT to be thought of as different or “acknowledged” as such.

This is easily relatable to past issues of gay rights – that, in the past (and present for a shrinking few), many anti-gay bigots insisted that gay people must stay in the closet or even be prosecuted by law for being gay, since they didn’t want to have to acknowledge or respect their existence.

I’m sure that individual gay and trans people vary on whether they want people to know about their sexual orientation/gender identity – but that’s up to each one of them.

[lance_strongarm]

@iiandyiiii

It’s not a real privilege, hence the quotes – the anti-trans bigots think they’re losing a privilege, but they’re not really losing anything.

So it’s not really a privilege? But because those who have this privilege that isn’t really a privilege think they have it, it actually is a privilege?

See how this isn’t working?

This is easily relatable to past issues of gay rights – that, in the past (and present for a shrinking few), many anti-gay bigots insisted that gay people must stay in the closet or even be prosecuted by law for being gay, since they didn’t want to have to acknowledge or respect their existence.

I’m not sure most trans people want to “come out” - it seems this is about the opposite. But whatever - they would have to say so.

Yes, when it comes to bathrooms, perhaps this is relatable to the gay rights issue.

I’m sure that individual gay and trans people vary on whether they want people to know about their sexual orientation/gender identity – but that’s up to each one of them.

Yes. Ultimately, if nobody knew, this wouldn’t be an issue in the first place.

[iiandyiiii]

Looking back at the first post to mention privilege, I think the privilege that Emiliana was referring to is the privilege that we cis people have of not actually having to worry about being assaulted in the bathroom, or prosecuted for using the “wrong” bathroom, and not having to consider that bathroom access is a real world issue of safety and dignity for some people.

So my first reading of what she was referring to may have been wrong.

[lance_strongarm]

@iiandyiiii

Looking back at the first post to mention privilege, I think the privilege that Emiliana was referring to is the privilege that we cis people have of not actually having to worry about being assaulted in the bathroom, or prosecuted for using the “wrong” bathroom, and not having to consider that bathroom access is a real world issue of safety and dignity for some people.

So my first reading of what she was referring to may have been wrong.

Hmmm.

So is the fear of being assaulted by men a good reason for women not to want men in the women’s room?

Is it a “privilege” to exclude members of the opposite sex from a restroom that involves not acknowledging their existence?

Why is it wrong to exclude people from certain bathrooms by sex - but still okay to do so by gender? That’s the rub.

[iiandyiiii]

@lance_strongarm

Hmmm.

So is the fear of being assaulted by men a good reason for women not to want men in the women’s room?

Perhaps, but I’m not sure. I don’t know if unisex bathrooms have any higher rates of assault than gendered bathrooms.

Is it a “privilege” to exclude members of the opposite sex from a restroom that involves not acknowledging their existence?

I don’t think I know what this means. “Not acknowledging their existence” refers to minority groups (whether sexual orientation, gender identity, or other) who have historically been marginalized to a degree that many people had little or no experience interacting with someone who admitted being part of that group. I don’t see how it would apply to a whole gender.

Why is it wrong to exclude people from certain bathrooms by sex - but still okay to do so by gender? That’s the rub.

Because segregating bathrooms by birth sex has demonstrably caused a great deal of harm, while segregating bathrooms by gender has not.

[lance_strongarm]

@iiandyiiii

Perhaps, but I’m not sure. I don’t know if unisex bathrooms have any higher rates of assault than gendered bathrooms.

So you’re saying it’s okay to exclude certain people with certain characteristics, or separate them from others who are different, based on the propensity of their group as a whole to commit crimes against the other group?

Think about the implications of that idea.

I don’t think I know what this means. “Not acknowledging their existence” refers to minority groups (whether sexual orientation, gender identity, or other) who have historically been marginalized to a degree that many people had little or no experience interacting with someone who admitted being part of that group. I don’t see how it would apply to a whole gender.

The “little or no experience interacting” is problematic - whites interacted with blacks all the time in the Jim Crow South. But moving on - is there a right to be “acknowledged?” Is there some kind of right not to be ignored?

Because segregating bathrooms by birth sex has demonstrably caused a great deal of harm, while segregating bathrooms by gender has not.

But I could say that it’s the separation by gender that caused this whole transgender problem in the first place. Certainly unisex bathrooms would solve it by both eliminating the issue of which one to use and possibly even protecting people from assault.

And you still have that “harm” problem where you personally claim the right to define it.

But I said a while back I wasn’t going to get dragged back into this conversation.

[VinylTurnip]

Sure. I could tell by the horse blood dripping from your knuckles.

[Emiliana]

@lance_strongarm

Interestingly, you prove my point here. Who is losing privilege in the bathroom debate? Are men losing the “privilege” of having male-only restrooms? Or women the privilege of women-only restrooms? Well, no, because nobody has proposed unisex restrooms. Transgender people don’t want to destroy the “privilege,” they want to join in the “privilege” of using restrooms they prefer and not mix with those they don’t want to mix with. See how weird it is to apply the standard civil rights language to this debate? No, you probably still don’t, which is why you don’t get it and why you should stay out of conversations you don’t understand.

Oh please. When someone pits my ignorance about transgender issues in an effort to keep the stupidity from infecting each and every tangentially-related thread, I’ll pause to ask myself whether I’m quite as smart as I think I am.

You, on the other hand, are far too big a fuckwit to do the same. I suppose every board needs its idiots.

[iiandyiiii]

@lance_strongarm

So you’re saying it’s okay to exclude certain people with certain characteristics, or separate them from others who are different, based on the propensity of their group as a whole to commit crimes against the other group?

Think about the implications of that idea.

That’s not the question you asked – you asked about fear, and I said ‘I don’t know – maybe the statistics, if they exist, would shed some light’.

The “little or no experience interacting” is problematic - whites interacted with blacks all the time in the Jim Crow South. But moving on - is there a right to be “acknowledged?” Is there some kind of right not to be ignored?

That’s why I didn’t compare this, directly, at least, to racial civil rights issues. Is there a right to be acknowledged? Probably not – I don’t even see how that would work, nor do I think it’s particularly relevant to this issue.

But I could say that it’s the separation by gender that caused this whole transgender problem in the first place. Certainly unisex bathrooms would solve it by both eliminating the issue of which one to use and possibly even protecting people from assault.

I’m fine with unisex bathrooms, assuming the public is, by and large. But I don’t think the public is, and since gendered bathrooms don’t harm anyone, I don’t feel the need to push back against it.

But no, it’s not separation by gender that “caused this whole transgender problem in the first place” – it’s bigotry against trans people. If people weren’t bigoted, whether by ignorance or by hatred/disdain/disgust/etc., then there would be no “problem” at all. But bigots might still oppose allowing trans people to use unisex bathrooms, based on their hatred.

And you still have that “harm” problem where you personally claim the right to define it.

No I don’t – I give my opinion. In my opinion, trans people have clearly demonstrated the harm of present (or pre-trans-rights) bathroom ‘rules’ (the ones that have resulted in assaults and threats and fear), while the anti-trans folks have not demonstrated any harm whatsoever from trans people being allowed to use the bathroom that matches their gender identity, and you (or any other anti-gendered bathroom folks) have not demonstrated any harm whatsoever from gendered bathrooms. These are just my opinions – others may differ. I don’t claim any special rights at all – everyone has the right to an opinion on this issue.

But I said a while back I wasn’t going to get dragged back into this conversation.

I’d say popping into non-bathroom related trans threads and repeating your incredulity about gendered bathrooms isn’t exactly being “dragged back into this conversation”…

[Emiliana]

The privilege to which I referred had nothing to do with the use of gender-segregated bathrooms, with or without trans people in them, which would be idiotic and therefore was assumed to be the case by Lance, but rather to the assumption on his part that he can speak to the concerns of women better than the women on this and other threads, and knows better than transgender people, including at least one on this board, how they should be framing their struggle against multiple forms of discrimination.

In spite of the fact that every time he sees the word transgender he screams BATHROOMS!, he knows far better than we who are actually involved in this struggle what we ought to be saying and doing. And he wonders why no one except for the ever-patient iiandyiiii actually wants to have a conversation with him.

Fuck that.

[BigT]

@lance_strongarm

Cool. Then I don’t particularly care to read your comments either. Since you haven’t read the thread, they add nothing to the conversation. You’d know why if you read the thread.

I have. Problem is, your argument only makes sense if you don’t believe trans men are men and trans women are women. Throughout your arguments, you try to connect trans women and a cis men going to the women’s bathroom, acting as if these are related concerns.

If trans women are women, then they get to go to the women’s bathroom. Period. End of discussion. It doesn’t matter that it makes people feel uncomfortable, because the issue is bigotry, not discomfort. You cannot treat a trans woman like she’s a man, no matter how badly it makes you feel to do otherwise.

Gendered restrooms exist because both men and women decided together that it made them more comfortable to segregate. That’s not bigoted, as both parties were involved. Because of this agreement, it is more likely someone violating it is doing so for nefarious reasons, hence that being the assumption made by some.

But a trans person is using the bathroom that is assigned to their gender. It is the only solution that makes sense if trans men are men and trans women are women. To say they have to use the other bathroom would be denying their gender identity, and that would be bigoted.

Yes, maybe in the future there will be some movement to get rid of gendered bathrooms. And, if there is, maybe someone using the wrong bathroom will be some sort of protest of gendered bathrooms, and people can respond to that. But, right now, using the wrong bathroom is most likely a mistake (maybe they’re drunk, or a janitor who thought the place was empty or you are mistaken about their gender), followed by a perverted act.

And that also tells you my answer to what you asked iiandyiiii. If a woman said there was a man in the bathroom with her, my assumption would first be that they were trans, so I would not get involved. If it’s someone I know isn’t transphobic, I would assume a real man, and that they were doing something creepy that the woman didn’t want to mention. So I would should back “Do you need help?” and go from there.

But, yeah, I think you don’t see trans woman as woman and trans men as men. You saying that trans people should be able to use their preferred restroom doesn’t line up with all your talk about how it makes these other people feel, as if that matters. And, assuming it is correct that you bring this up all the time in threads that aren’t about the bathroom issue, it only makes it look like you’re using this as a way to prove that transphobia is okay.

If trans men and trans women are men and women, respectively, then transphobia is not okay.

[Slash1972]

@BigT

If trans women are women, then they get to go to the women’s bathroom. Period. End of discussion.

Sums it up nicely! But why then all the talk about “bathroom most comfortable in” and “choosing whichever bathroom they feel safer in” and others?

Transgendered women are not really preferring nor choosing anything, they are women and therefore use the women’s restroom - no designation of “comfort level” or “safety” needs to be involved.

And that also tells you my answer to what you asked iiandyiiii. If a woman said there was a man in the bathroom with her, my assumption would first be that they were trans, so I would not get involved. If it’s someone I know isn’t transphobic, I would assume a real man, and that they were doing something creepy that the woman didn’t want to mention. So I would should back “Do you need help?” and go from there.

What would you say to a woman who felt uncomfortable with a transgender MAN in the women’s room?

[lance_strongarm]

@Emiliana

Oh please. When someone pits my ignorance about transgender issues in an effort to keep the stupidity from infecting each and every tangentially-related thread, I’ll pause to ask myself whether I’m quite as smart as I think I am.

You, on the other hand, are far too big a fuckwit to do the same. I suppose every board needs its idiots.

When you want to discuss this like an adult, let me know.

[lance_strongarm]

@Slash1972

Sums it up nicely! But why then all the talk about “bathroom most comfortable in” and “choosing whichever bathroom they feel safer in” and others?

Transgendered women are not really preferring nor choosing anything, they are women and therefore use the women’s restroom - no designation of “comfort level” or “safety” needs to be involved.

Which leads to a new question: What’s a woman? How do you define woman? Since you can’t even define it with sex, what’s left? Appearance is all it is. But can we enforce that either? Could we, for instance, force a female who identifies as a woman but who looks like a man use the men’s room? No, because it’s all about the person’s identity, not appearance.

So nobody can know who is a man or woman, or really care either, and there’s no way, let alone now right, to verify it either.

I’m not complaining about this. I’m just pointing it out. It seems weird to pretend that we care, or should care, or even have the capability of caring, about gender segregation in restrooms is kind of silly. It would be more honest to just say they don’t work any more.

[Emiliana]

@lance_strongarm

When you want to discuss this like an adult, let me know.

Since any such discussion would not involve you, I won’t bother alerting you to its existence.

[Una_Persson]

@lance_strongarm

I’m not sure most trans people want to “come out” - it seems this is about the opposite.

And again you demonstrate you haven’t thought this through, because although it’s factual it’s also not a complete casting of the actual problem. A large number of us are forced out even if we never open our mouths, because outside of people on desert islands transition is a public event. Most transgender women do not “pass,” and even the ones who do, and the transgender men, will out themselves having to change names, legal documentation, etc.

It has nothing to do with wanting. I would have loved to have had the option to never be out.

[Una_Persson]

@lance_strongarm

Which leads to a new question: What’s a woman? How do you define woman? Since you can’t even define it with sex, what’s left?

The same way it’s always been defined, by gender identity. Although there was no word for it for most of human history, transgender people have existed since the earliest ages, and thus the divide between physical sex and gender identity has precedent. The fact that physical sex and brain gender align for the large majority of people doesn’t mean that the two are not separate.

So nobody can know who is a man or woman, or really care either, and there’s no way, let alone now right, to verify it either.

Ask them.

I’m not complaining about this. I’m just pointing it out.

Are you “just askin’ questions,” or “concerned?”

[lance_strongarm]

@Una_Persson

The same way it’s always been defined, by gender identity.

Yes, that’s what I said.

And gender identity is entirely up to the person with that identity. It is not determined by their body, or even their appearance.

And there’s no official ID card that proves someone has that identity.

So if someone wanted to enforce a bathroom policy, there would be no way to do it. And if someone wanted to decide who to be comfortable or uncomfortable with, they couldn’t do it either. They can’t even know if a person who appears to be the opposite sex, or the same sex, or the opposite gender, or the same gender, actually is. Looks tell you nothing.

So the idea that we should, or can, care about who is in the bathroom with us is becoming increasingly difficult to realize. And perhaps this will lead to people not caring any more someday.

Are you “just askin’ questions,” or “concerned?”

I’m just asking questions. I’m exploring the issue. I understand your defensiveness, but take my words at face value and don’t read anything into them. Just as you rightfully expect others not to speak for you, don’t speak for me. Thank you.

[lance_strongarm]

@Una_Persson

And again you demonstrate you haven’t thought this through, because although it’s factual it’s also not a complete casting of the actual problem. A large number of us are forced out even if we never open our mouths, because outside of people on desert islands transition is a public event. Most transgender women do not “pass,” and even the ones who do, and the transgender men, will out themselves having to change names, legal documentation, etc.

Of course.

But I did think of that, when I said: “Ultimately, if nobody knew, this wouldn’t be an issue in the first place.” Obviously some transgender people can’t conceal their transition for various reasons.

It has nothing to do with wanting. I would have loved to have had the option to never be out.

That’s all I was saying - that transgender people probably don’t want to be pointed out as a transgender in the first place, just as their gender like anyone else.

[lance_strongarm]

@Emiliana

Since any such discussion would not involve you, I won’t bother alerting you to its existence.

Ah, a childish response. Perfect.