Isn’t this why people are saying bathroom policies codified in a law are stupid?
Yes, that’s what I’m saying too. Codifying and enforcing them are going to be impossible. It’s even harder to codify and enforce a policy that restricts people to bathrooms by gender than it is by sex (the North Carolina-style laws that go by birth certificate or ID). Unless, of course, trans people succeed in changing their gender on official documents, then you could have such a policy, if that’s what you actually wanted to do.
No, it’s not “becoming increasingly difficult” – I’ve made this point many times. It’s exactly the same – there have never been ID checks, or genital checks, etc. It’s always been possible for people to be deceitful. There’s never been “enforcement”, except through social custom and practice.
Allowing trans people to use the bathroom that corresponds to their gender identity changes nothing with regards to these concerns.
Now there are though. You didn’t notice?
There are now men - males who identify as men - going into women’s rooms just to protest transgender access policies. Sometimes they have been arrested.
But those days are over now that we have established the legal right of transgender people to defy those social customs and practices.
How can you possibly have social customs and practices enforce a policy when nobody can even know who is who? I don’t mean that flippantly - I mean that if you can’t judge a person by appearance - you can’t declare that only people who look like men can use the men’s room and vice versa - how do you enforce such a policy with social pressure? And more importantly, WHY? If the genitals of who uses the bathroom with you don’t matter, and the gender appearance doesn’t matter - since you can’t possibly force men to look like traditional ideas of manliness or vice versa if you can’t even use biological sex to do that - then you have de facto unisex restrooms.
And maybe that’s okay. I’m not complaining, just pointing it out.
So maybe it’s not increasingly difficult, but it could be. This opens the door to it, because, as I said, if you can’t define gender by genitals, you certainly can’t do it by traditional appearance norm. So people will do what they want. Not complaining, not freaking out, just observing.
Would you cite specific cases we can look at, and the specific crimes they were charged with? I suspect you’re misrepresenting these cases, because I’m unaware of any who have been arrested and charged specifically with the crime of going into an opposite-sex bathroom.
Because those men aren’t going into bathrooms to use the bathroom, but rather for some bizarre political point (which may be considered lewd behavior in some places). They’re not stopped because of gender enforcement or something, but because they’re behaving lewdly (or otherwise breaking the law).
I don’t see how or why.
But this is only for a very small number of people, and more relevantly, this was already true and always has been. There have always been some small number of birth-sex men who looked like women, and birth-sex women who looked like men. With new cultural practices, perhaps there will be a slight increase in that number (more openly trans people who don’t pass or are otherwise indeterminant in how they present relative to societal expectations regarding gender and appearance), but otherwise, this is nothing new. The same thing (ideally, when bigotry is no longer significant) will happen that happened in the past with men who looked like women and vice versa – occasional close looks (or even momentary dirty or confused looks), maybe occasional questions (“do you mean to be in the ladies’ room?”), and a lot of people just ignoring them because they don’t care.
Again, you’re not observing anything new. This was already the case for a very small number of people – now the pool of that small number will be a bit bigger.
A trans woman specifically defies the intent of the NC law and is not charged with a crime for it.
Here’s a dude being a jackass:
Not charged with potty crimes.
This asshole wasn’t arrested.
So what cases are you thinking of where men have been arrested for going into women’s bathrooms?
Again, there WAS no “policy” before. People just generally used the bathrooms for their gender. The act of MAKING policies is what is stupid and potentially harmful and what is causing all the uproar.
We don’t need “policies” to keep doing what we’ve been doing for a long time.
You’re right, nobody has been arrested that I can find just for the crime of entering a bathroom yet. Some have been arrested, but not specifically for entering a bathroom.
But where’s that leave us?
Suppose a man goes into a women’s room and parks himself there in front of the sinks. He just sits there a while. He’s not hurting anyone or acting lewdly or anything. What do you think will happen next? What should happen next?
What if a man walks into a women’s locker room and undresses? Should he be arrested? Would he be? If not, what’s to stop him from doing it? What’s to stop a whole gang of men from doing it all at once? You can’t tell me social pressure alone work if someone wants to test these limits. Someone will get arrested somewhere.
And hey, maybe it won’t happen. Maybe everyone will just go along with the new rules. But that’s what people once said about transgender people. Right or wrong, someone may challenge the rules. It happens. It took legal action to assure that transgender people have access to restrooms, so it’s not outside the realm of possibility that someone will challenge the rules in a new way.
But this is still missing the larger issue.
The very idea of gender is subject to challenge now. And I think that’s a good thing. We have no right to define gender for other people and tell them they aren’t a woman if they have short hair or wear pants, or even look exactly like what we think men look like. If we can’t tell them what genitals they must have, how can we do that? That’s a form of liberation and it’s a good thing.
The bathroom debate, though, falls apart when that happens.
That’s all I’m saying. I look forward to that day.
But you’re not doing what you’ve been doing for a long time any more. And there ARE policies–the policies that give transgender people a RIGHT to use the bathroom of their choice. That’s a policy. It won’t get someone arrested, but it will get a state sued.
So what?
The motive isn’t the point.
Your invocation of social pressure is absurd. There’s no way you can justify that anymore.
I am male. I identify as a man. If I want to dress entirely the way women dress and look, to the point of being mistaken for a woman, who are you to tell me I can’t do that? Who are you to tell me what it means to be a man? If a transgender person can have male genitals and be a woman, I can certainly get my hair done and wear a dress and still be a man. And I’m not talking about it being some stunt or political point - I mean you can’t tell people what their gender is based on their appearance.
So that means you can’t use social pressure any more, because you can’t tell I’m a man or woman just by looking at me, and you can’t check my genitals.
The process of breaking out of strict male-female appearance requirements started happening long ago. Women wear pants now and have short hair, for instance, and men wear long hair. That process is continuing. I think that’s a good thing.
Sure, maybe they’ll still care about which restroom they use even after you can’t tell them apart. But will they care? Will anyone?
Why can’t you just admit that this is the beginning of a big change? It’s not a bad thing. I"m not saying it’s a bad thing. I’m not saying it means we should fear transgenders. I’m saying transgender people are paving the way for something much bigger. I predict the gradual end of gendered bathrooms and the continued blurring of gender. No big deal saying that.
But I AM doing what I’ve been doing for a long time - using the men’s room. There wouldn’t BE policies if people just let men use the men’s room and women use the women’s room, just like it’s always been.
Dude, why didn’t you just say that outright on page 1, instead of 11? I agree, probably more places will move to unisex bathrooms. So? In the meantime, let men go to men’s rooms, and women go to women’s rooms, just like it’s been for a long time.
If someone wants to put on a dress and go into the women’s room to use the bathroom, who cares? If a woman wants to use the men’s room because the women’s room line is too long, again, who cares? Most people will just stick to the bathroom of their gender. People who want to stop that are the ones causing problems.
Where have I suggested that you shouldn’t or can’t? Of course you can, and I have no problem with you or anyone doing this.
Yes we can. The vast majority have no interest of violating the social norm of using the “correct” bathroom – that’s because of social pressure. That some jackasses might be deceitful and deliberately violate this (as has happened in the past) doesn’t change this. Social pressure means you’re probably going to use the bathroom that matches your gender identity, because you have no interest in doing something else.
Sure, it might be the beginning of a big change. That’s an entirely different discussion, and has nothing to do with whether we should or shouldn’t get rid of gendered bathrooms. I’m fine with that change coming, if that’s what most people want (and as long as it’s not accompanied by harmful practices).
But you’ve been arguing for different things, from what I can tell – you’ve been arguing that gendered bathrooms are pointless nowadays, or with these new norms for accepting trans people, and I’m telling you that this is false. That there’s nothing new here – people can still be deceitful, but the vast majority have no interest in being deceitful, and therefore gendered bathrooms can and probably will continue in the short and medium turn.
YOU don’t. But most people probably would.
But I’m saying perhaps more people will have such an interest.
Social pressure is what kept transgender people out of restrooms in the first place. You may need to take a stand again against social pressure when the time comes.
It’s not a different discussion at all. If social pressure is no longer enough to keep enough people from using whichever bathroom they want, for whatever reason may cause it, we’ll have unisex bathrooms anyway.
I’m not saying that. I’m saying they may become pointless in the future. I’m saying that “social pressure,” since it was once used to oppress transgender people, is a pretty weak thing to rely on or to support. When someone challenges social pressure, I think we should support those challenges and fight against it, not just sit around and watch and not see it coming.
So, I’ve been thinking about the “transgender people fear assult” argument. Nobody should fear being assaulted, of course, so this is a reason to be taken seriously.
Not saying this is a real concern, but suppose gay men (who are not transgender) said they fear being assaulted in a men’s room or locker room? That’s also a reasonable concern. Could a gay man decide that the solution is to use the women’s restroom or locker room instead? Would there be a good reason to say no?
If this is all you’re saying, then I don’t think I have any disagreements. I have no problem with challenging social pressure (when the social pressure is for something harmful), and I have no problem with challenging the notion of gendered bathrooms in general. No one really seems to be doing so right now, and I’m fine with that too, since I don’t think gendered bathrooms (when free of the harm of anti-trans discrimination) cause harm.
But frankly, this seems pretty damn different from what you’ve been saying before.
Well, maybe that’s because I felt like it was taking so long to explain. That may be my fault. I was also occasionally distracted by all kinds of a-hole trolls. Thanks for not being one.
All that’s left for me to say is if you are prepared to challenge the notion of gendered bathrooms in general, be prepared for many people to vigorously object - and to explain to them why you are right, and why your views outweigh their desire for certain kinds of privacy in a restroom. It’s not going to be easy.
I have no interest in challenging the notion of gendered bathrooms, and I also have no interest of fighting against any such challenges. I’m completely fine with either. My views are not in conflict with anyone who favors gendered bathrooms, nor are they in conflict with anyone who opposes them.
Gendered bathrooms are just like whites-only vs. blacks-only bathrooms. They discriminate unfairly. Separate but equal is inherently unequal (as any woman who has had to wait in a long line for the women’s room can tell you).
What’s more, they force people to choose between looking like one of two traditional appearances of gender, or face strong social pressure and possibly even harassment for using a restroom others feel they shouldn’t because they don’t look like the appropriate gender for that restroom. Ergo, a male who identifies as a man but who claims the right to look and dress however he wants, including possibly looking like a woman to some, and vice versa may face such harassment. Think specifically of gay men and women, especially lesbians who dress and cut their hair like the traditional male look yet use the women’s room.
There, I made a case for justice. Ignore it or dismiss it as you wish, but that puts you on the wrong side of history, unless you want to come out and justify a discriminatory policy. Or sit on your hands and wait until this happens in the real world someday, which I think it might.