The lance strongarm transgender bathroom and poly marriage extravaganza thread!

[iiandyiiii]

@lance_strongarm

Exactly. I won’t get an answer. The best I get is that we’ll just rely on everyone to voluntarily use the restroom they want, which is fine, but that completely breaks down as soon as one person chooses the opposite. If you are a woman who prefers a bathroom without men in it and just one man uses it, he ruined it for you. You no longer have such a room. And since the man might actually be a cisgender woman who simply choose to look and dress like a traditional idea of a man (she may be a lesbian, or maybe not), and you can’t tell her from a male, then there’s no point anyway.

You keep saying something like “it completely breaks down”, but *this has always been possible *. It doesn’t “break down” when someone uses the “wrong” bathroom – people go on with their lives. Maybe there’s a minor stir or maybe nothing happens, but the system doesn’t break down at all. It breaks down if most people aren’t sticking to it. If .001% of people don’t stick to it, that’s not breaking it down at all.

Until you present evidence that more than a miniscule fraction of people aren’t going to be sticking to the system as expected, then it doesn’t break down at all. This possibility has always existed, and some people have always been deceptive. But very few, and I see no reason to believe that this would increase significantly in the future.

All I want is for people to stop pretending that this is the end of it, and to stop acting like asking these questions is somehow damaging to the cause. I’m ready to move beyond supporting just transgender people. I wonder if others are ready.

Who has said “this is the end of it”?

No, asking these questions is not “damaging to the cause”, but these questions have been answered, many times, and you just don’t like the answers.

That’s why I asked that question. I can’t say it would occur in real life though. However, there are people who say they are genderfluid - their gender changes back and forth - and others who say they are non-binary and have no gender, or both. Those are real people. They have rights too. How we could fit them into the current “men and women, one or the other” system is a tough question.

It’s not that tough a question for me – use whatever bathroom is more comfortable. If you behave lewdly, then expect consequences.

The vast majority of people will not be lewd, and will use the bathroom that matches their identity, and the system will work fine, even if some small number of people defy the system (just like small numbers have in the past), or present an unconventional appearance (just like small numbers in the past).

All you’re talking about is outliers, and outliers have always existed, and the system has functioned just fine despite their existence.

[lance_strongarm]

@iiandyiiii

They want to safely use the bathroom. If bathrooms are gendered, then that means they want to use the one that matches their identity.

Show me any trans people that you’ve argued with that specifically have argued that gendered bathrooms should be preserved.

If safety means they need to be only with those of their own gender, how can you say they don’t want that?

What? What does this have to do with what I said?

If you are okay with unisex bathrooms, you are okay with transgender people using a bathroom with those of the opposite gender.

I don’t believe that this is accurate. Further, publicly outing themselves by using a separate bathroom for trans people seems far more likely to attract violence and threats than using the one that matches their identity.

Why? Most of the violence is based on them using the “wrong” bathroom.

Are you saying the safety issue is that they will be discovered as transgender?

The safest option seems clearly to me to be allowing them to use the bathroom matching their identity, which doesn’t require them to publicly out themselves every time they pee.

Ah, yes, I guess that’s what you’re saying. OK.

Maybe, or maybe not, but I don’t care. Considering that people could always be deceptive, and there was never verification, and people used the bathroom for their gender identity because they preferred to as opposed to because they were required to, then I think it’s likely to stick around for quite a while.

No they aren’t, and this has nothing to do with deception or all that. It’s about people defying gender itself.

This changes nothing with regards to deception, or appearances, or enforcement. All of this was possible before and will continue to be possible.

Wrong. Stop trying to avoid it. If someone who looks like a man uses the women’s room, people will care. If they didn’t, we wouldn’t have separate restrooms.

Now we’ve established that people aren’t allowed to care. They can’t confront someone who looks like they are in the “wrong” restroom. They can’t try to verify their sex, or gender. There’s no law or policy to enforce it either.

Right?

So that’s it. Anyone can use any restroom they choose.

[lance_strongarm]

@iiandyiiii

You keep saying something like “it completely breaks down”, but *this has always been possible *. It doesn’t “break down” when someone uses the “wrong” bathroom – people go on with their lives.

And there you have it.

Unisex bathrooms exist already.

The only difference between the past, when people “got on with their lives” and the future is that its going to happen much more frequently, enough to where even you have to acknowledge it. And it may produce backlash - just like the transgender issue is doing - and new laws to stop it. And you’ll have to deal with those.

I’m ready for that. Are you?

[Folly]

@lance_strongarm

And there you have it.

Unisex bathrooms exist already.

The only difference between the past, when people “got on with their lives” and the future is that its going to happen much more frequently

Why? What has changed that will make it happen much more frequently? Where were transgender women and cisgender women who like to dress like men (whatever dressing like men means) going to the bathroom in the past?

[iiandyiiii]

@lance_strongarm

If safety means they need to be only with those of their own gender, how can you say they don’t want that?

That’s not what safety means – it means not getting beaten or threatened.

If you are okay with unisex bathrooms, you are okay with transgender people using a bathroom with those of the opposite gender.

Yes, I’m okay with it – I’ve made this clear multiple times. I’m also okay with gendered bathrooms. If society continues to choose the latter, then I’m okay with it, and trans people must be protected.

Why? Most of the violence is based on them using the “wrong” bathroom.

Are you saying the safety issue is that they will be discovered as transgender?

Ah, yes, I guess that’s what you’re saying. OK.

Where did you think the violence came from? Did you think they were actually afraid of trans people, or they just hated trans people?

Was the KKK actually afraid of black people, or did they just hate them?

I think the answer is pretty obviously the latter for both questions.

No they aren’t, and this has nothing to do with deception or all that. It’s about people defying gender itself.

You say they aren’t, and I say they are. Pretty much every human I’ve ever known preferred using the bathroom of their gender identity – not because they worried about enforcement or punishment, but just because they were more comfortable doing so.

If some tiny, tiny number defy this convention (and some people always have), then I don’t see this as a significant thing to worry about.

Wrong.

No, right. Saying “wrong” doesn’t make it wrong.

Stop trying to avoid it. If someone who looks like a man uses the women’s room, people will care. If they didn’t, we wouldn’t have separate restrooms.

Yes, and this possibility has always been around. There’s nothing new here.

Now we’ve established that people aren’t allowed to care.

No we haven’t.

They can’t confront someone who looks like they are in the “wrong” restroom.

Sure they can. I don’t think they should (barring lewdness), but I’d never advocate that it’s against the law to ask.

They can’t try to verify their sex, or gender.

Aside from asking questions, they’ve never been able to, and yet things have gone okay for generations.

There’s no law or policy to enforce it either.

Has there ever been? It’s enforced by social convention, which has been so successful that almost every adult in America prefers and feels most comfortable going to the bathroom matching their gender identity. No law is needed.

Right?

So that’s it. Anyone can use any restroom they choose.

This has always been the case, with miniscule amounts of effort.

Again, all you’re talking about is outliers, which have always existed. Why are you so worried about outliers now?

[iiandyiiii]

@lance_strongarm

And there you have it.

Unisex bathrooms exist already.

Then they always have.

The only difference between the past, when people “got on with their lives” and the future is that its going to happen much more frequently, enough to where even you have to acknowledge it. And it may produce backlash - just like the transgender issue is doing - and new laws to stop it. And you’ll have to deal with those.

What evidence do you have that it’s going to happen “much more frequently”?

I’m not going to accept things just because you say them.

I’m ready for that. Are you?

I’m certainly ready and fine with a shift in societal preferences to unisex bathrooms, even if I’d be a little surprised if that happened quickly. I’m also ready for no such shift. Are you?

[Slash1972]

@iiandyiiii

I’m certainly ready and fine with a shift in societal preferences to unisex bathrooms, even if I’d be a little surprised if that happened quickly. I’m also ready for no such shift. Are you?

Pretty sure it will get there.

Serious question actually - do you think the outcry over Target’s bathroom policy would have been just as great if they had quietly changed all their bathrooms to unisex bathrooms without any announcements or press releases?

[iiandyiiii]

@Slash1972

Pretty sure it will get there.

Serious question actually - do you think the outcry over Target’s bathroom policy would have been just as great if they had quietly changed all their bathrooms to unisex bathrooms without any announcements or press releases?

I would expect it would have been greater.

[Slash1972]

@iiandyiiii

I would expect it would have been greater.

And why would you expect that? I suspect that there would hardly be any outcry. I haven’t seen a lot of protests over unisex bathrooms, nor a lot of protests over transgendered persons using unisex bathrooms. Have you?

[iiandyiiii]

@Slash1972

And why would you expect that? I suspect that there would hardly be any outcry. I haven’t seen a lot of protests over unisex bathrooms, nor a lot of protests over transgendered persons using unisex bathrooms. Have you?

Because I think the public pretty overwhelmingly prefers gendered restrooms, and because I believe the anti trans folks are only interested in harming and marginalizing trans people, for the most part, so they will be upset at anything that helps trans people in any way

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@iiandyiiii

Because I think the public pretty overwhelmingly prefers gendered restrooms, and because I believe the anti trans folks are only interested in harming and marginalizing trans people, for the most part, so they will be upset at anything that helps trans people in any way

Indeed.

Here’s my ultra-libertarian proposal:

-Everyone making bathrooms is free to put signs on them as they wish, as long as those signs aren’t threatening. Say “Unisex,” say “men” and “women,” say, “fillies” and “stallions,” say “Martians” and “Venusians,” I don’t give a shit.
-Everyone using bathrooms is free to use the bathroom that they believe is appropriate for them to use.
-Everyone minds their fucking business.

Lance might want to call that a unisex bathroom proposal and declare victory. Woohoo for him.

[Kimstu]

@lance

If someone who looks like a man uses the women’s room, people will care. If they didn’t, we wouldn’t have separate restrooms.

But the point about people being free to use the restroom of the gender they identify with is that people who look like men will be less likely to use the women’s room.

The people who use the women’s room will be those who identify as women. And those people, whether cis or trans, generally choose to present themselves as women.

Bearded bald guys with vaginas will be using the men’s room, and busty braceleted women with penises will be using the women’s room. Their genitalia will not be on display.

So, at least on the level of just using the restroom for its intended purpose and not trying to pry into strangers’ underwear, respecting the right of transgender people to use the restroom of their identified gender will make restrooms seem more consistently gender-binary, not less.

[Slash1972]

@iiandyiiii

Because I think the public pretty overwhelmingly prefers gendered restrooms, and because I believe the anti trans folks are only interested in harming and marginalizing trans people, for the most part, so they will be upset at anything that helps trans people in any way

I see. So do you have any news stories about people protesting a unisex bathroom to the same degree as people protesting allowing transgender people to use their gender identity bathroom?

[Slash1972]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

-Everyone using bathrooms is free to use the bathroom that they believe is appropriate for them to use.
-Everyone minds their fucking business.

And you would say this to a woman who complains about a gender-typical man in the women’s room?

“There was a man in the restroom! Not a transgender woman, but a gender-typical man! So I called the cops”

your response - “Mind your own fucking business next time! He is free to use whatever bathroom he wants!” :rolleyes:

[iiandyiiii]

@Slash1972

I see. So do you have any news stories about people protesting a unisex bathroom to the same degree as people protesting allowing transgender people to use their gender identity bathroom?

I see plenty of stories about people protesting allowing men to use the restroom with women (which doesn’t have anything to do with trans use of bathrooms, of course) – and with unisex bathrooms, every man would be using the restroom with women. So I would expect the protests to ramp up exponentially – especially since this time, they’d actually be accurate that men would be in the restroom with women.

[Folly]

@iiandyiiii

I see plenty of stories about people protesting allowing men to use the restroom with women (which doesn’t have anything to do with trans use of bathrooms, of course) – and with unisex bathrooms, every man would be using the restroom with women. So I would expect the protests to ramp up exponentially – especially since this time, they’d actually be accurate that men would be in the restroom with women.

This of course would be true if the protests are actually about allowing men to use the restroom with women and not just a thinly veiled protest against the existence of transgender people.

I wonder which it is? Who remembers all the protests against unisex bathrooms in businesses in Houston last year? I know I do… not.

Houston restrooms outpace politics

[Slash1972]

@iiandyiiii

I see plenty of stories about people protesting allowing men to use the restroom with women (which doesn’t have anything to do with trans use of bathrooms, of course) – and with unisex bathrooms, every man would be using the restroom with women. So I would expect the protests to ramp up exponentially – especially since this time, they’d actually be accurate that men would be in the restroom with women.

Here are a couple news stories about unisex bathrooms. Can’t find the huge protests over them tho.

Link 1

Some here are going out of their way to send a message that Charlotte welcomes all. A handful of bars and restaurants have switched all of their bathrooms to unisex

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Slash1972

And you would say this to a woman who complains about a gender-typical man in the women’s room?

“There was a man in the restroom! Not a transgender woman, but a gender-typical man! So I called the cops”

your response - “Mind your own fucking business next time! He is free to use whatever bathroom he wants!” :rolleyes:

If the man was completely minding his own fucking business, then yeah.

[Slash1972]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

If the man was completely minding his own fucking business, then yeah.

Well then, I commend you on your acceptance of unisex bathrooms!

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Slash1972

Well then, I commend you on your acceptance of unisex bathrooms!

If you really need to claim victory in such a manner, I’ll put your trophy in the mail.