Stoid:
What I meant was do not presume to know my motivations. You’ve heard me say it before.
Yeah, and? Apparantly, this is important to you. I heard ya. Still don’t get why you’re bringing it up here, but let me assure you that you need not concern yourself about it.
Unless, of course, you are meaning to imply that I have presumed to know your motivations in this thread, on this topic? If you believe so, I’ll need you to specifically point it out, since I don’t believe I’ve done that. In fact, I’m damn certain I haven’t done it. But it is possible that you have mistaken something I’ve said for me doing that, so again, you’ll have to point it out. [sub](And since you broguht it up, I’d like to remind you that in the actual instance of my assigning motivation to your actions, I did not deny I was doing so. I absolutely was, that was the very crux of the debate.)[/sub]
And unless/until you do that, I will have to * presume * that your *motive * for making this vague complaint is a means of diverting attention from the fact that you have failed to address my response to your assertion that being fat is a meaningful measure of a person’s character by revealing how they deal with life’s difficulties.
stoid
Considering how I have hardly said word one to you this thread, or recently I don’t think you have any valid reason to make demands.
Let me make myself perfectly clear. I did not appreciate the hateful and threatening email I received from you a few months ago. Though the demands in that email were unreasonable, I thought it best to humor you and let things cool off.
I do however take that kind of thing very seriously.
I don’t think it’s smart or prudent to waste my time with you.
I regret having responded to your earlier post.
See ya.
i liked this thread a lot better when it was turning into a lovefest…
Scylla, you are a liar.
And if you are not conciously choosing to lie, you are behaving in a delusional fashion.
But this is getting distinctinly Pit-worthy, and that’s where I’ve gone with my response.
stoid
Wow, all this hostility is making me want a donut.
-L
Back on page three, this was offered as response to one of my posts:
Unfortunately, I’ve not been able to discern any substance in this … um … criticism. Perhaps, Stoid, you could explain what this outburst was all about.
To help you in addressing me, should you choose to do so, please keep in mind that I posted to this thread only to address a particularly ridiculous assertion offered earlier. If you keep your response to me appropriately specific, I think I will have less difficulty understanding your concerns.
… or, we can just go to another forum where your style of posting is more commonly accepted.
I think, Tymp, that Stiod was disagreeing with your assessment of why people are fat.
In my own view, I suspect it is partially what you suggested (I hope no one is going to seriously entertain that a large portion of a society can be obese when food is scarce, or one must hunt mammoths all day long over many miles) and partially that those who are fat do nothing to change it.
Why they do nothing to change it is going to be where *Stoid gets all over you. She’ll most likely attribute it to a wide variety of psychological factors, while you attribute it to a lack of discouraging societal forces. I think in this argument, I would probably have to side with her.
Your estimation of my position is almost accurate, Necros. I would suggest that those who do nothing to lose weight have no compelling reason to overcome the various psychological factors that lead to being overweight. Certainly there are millions of people who have identified compelling reasons, societal or otherwise, to exercise the discipline necessary to overcome these issues. Others have found the comfort of life without that discipline to be more important than the discomfort (if any) of being overweight.
To some, being lean is very important; to others, not so much. That’s my position in a nutshell. It’s certainly nothing to get incensed over.
Just dropping in to express my amusement at Stoid’s admittedly reasoned, eloquent, and passionate posts regarding how wrong it is to make judgements about people based upon their weight.
Then remembering that she is the author of the thread, “Why I dislike Republicans” (Winner of the 2000 SDMB Generalization of the Year Award).
Then remembering how she and her “honey” had to laughingly chide themselves not to think of people with Southern accents as unintelligent.
Then remembering other, numbingly shallow generalizations about Christians and people from rural areas.
Call 911! I’m having an irony overdose!
Thank you all for your feedback on my last post.
Meara, I like your market analogy and I think your post about the difficulties of various life choices was perspicacious.
I agree that most people on this board already understand the relationship between food intake and weight. In fact, the posts from the last couple of days have been right on the money.
I guess a few earlier posts had me a little worried–I don’t remember who said them, and for all I know I was misreading them. For one thing, I heard echoes of the myth that the energy-in/energy-out function varied significanty from person to person, whereas for the vast majority of the population, it falls along a fairly tight curve (fighting the urge to fill this with cites . . . :)).
Another comment I heard was that diabetes causes obesity. The most common types (Mellitus types I and II) are generally not thought to cause obesity, but vice versa–it’s thought to be one contributing cause for certain individuals. In fact, untreated diabetics are hyerglycemic and thus tend to lose weight (although they may gain weight if their meds are dosed incorrectly) (1). (Okay, one cite :))
SexyWriter, in my zeal to critique “Fat!So?” organizations, I suppose I did underestimate the power of such groups to re-focus people’s lives and give obese people back their dignity. Thank you for that input. An advocacy group that fights job discrimination, insurance descrimination, or outright harassment, all while inspiring and uplifting its members–that’s a good thing. (While I don’t agree with everything they claim, NAAFSA seems like a good example of this type of group).
I do want to make clear that anyone claiming you’re healthiest at 300 lbs. hasn’t read any medical literature or has their own book to sell. Not that anyone here is claiming that, but some people “out there” sure are!
This is fun,
Alki
(1) The Merck Manual, 16th Ed., pp. 1109, 1118, 1126
Sorry I’ve come late to the party, but I just couldn’t let this statement stand.
From the physics standpoint, you’re partway there, but you have left out a major part of the equation. It is true that if 25 calories are required to lift a given weight a given height, then those 25 calories are required regardless of whether the mover was a fat person, a skinny person, an electrical motor, or a hamster. The 25 calories which you refer to are the OUTPUT which is required to raise a given weight a given distance. The calories expended by the mover, however, would be the calories INPUT, which would be equal to the output divided by the mover’s efficiency. The more efficient the system (e.g., for the people and the hamster, this would be related to their metabolism), the less energy would be expended.
My god, Milo, isn’t that chip getting a little heavy? You plan on getting over it any time in the next decade or so? Not that you have to, or anything, it just seems sort of silly…
stoid
You made the following assertion, ludicrous then, ludicrous still:
Which could accurately be restated as: “If fat people felt being fat was a big problem, they wouldn’t be fat. Therefore they must be ok with it.” which is just completely ridiculous.
I shouldn’t have to explain why, and if you need me to, I’m sorry but I can’t. If it is not evident to you that most morbidly obese people are tormented physically and emotionally by their condition, and wish to be able to change, and struggle to change, it is beyond my powers to explain it to you in a way you would understand it.
stoid
Can we get back to the OP, which is actually much more interesting than what this has been hijacked into?
I wouldn’t say that overweight sterotyping is the LAST acceptable stereotype, but I would certainly agree that the overweight are almost certainly the group which it is most socially acceptable to stereotype.
There is no shortage of people who still hold sterotypical beliefs which I find offensive and ignorant about groups such as blacks, women, Jews, etc. However, it is becoming more and more socially unacceptable for them to voice those beliefs. Although I was brought up in a household where I was taught that it was not an appropriate word to use, I certainly heard what is now called the “N-word” in common usage as a child in the 60’s. Now it is a word which is rightfully falling into disfavor. Jesse Jackson lost a great deal of credibility a few years ago with his bigoted statement about “Hymies in Hymietown.” We still have a long, long, way to go, but at least we’re starting to see that bigotry in any way, shape, or form is offensive.
But somehow we seem to have missed this distinction in terms of the overweight. Fat jokes never end. Joan Rivers revived a career (and entirely lost my respect for her comedic abilities) a few years ago by heaping abuse on Elizabeth Taylor for her weight difficulties. Monica Lewinsky was the butt of many jokes based not just upon her questionable behavior, but because she was overweight. (Not obese. Overweight.) Many of the jokes about Tonya Harding were based not upon her thuggish behavior, but were about calling her fat. (She was not fat. Muscular as all get-out to perform a very demanding physical sport, but not fat.)
I know there are many Heinlein-philes out there; here is an excerpt from his novel Stranger in a Strange Land which in my opinion points out why fat prejudice is so pervasive in our society.
To set up the quote, Jubal is explaining to Duke why Mike’s cultural custom of ritual cannibalism of the dead (to cherish them and literally absorb their essence) is not, based upon the belief system in which he was raised, uncivilized. (I know, if you haven’t read the book this sounds pretty bizarre, but work with me here):
That’s the problem. We’re in a society that is steeped in the concept of abusing fat people. As Heinlein pointed out, a fat person doesn’t need someone to directly confront them and say “You are fat, and therefore you are bad” to get the impression that society feels fat people are bad. All the messages in the media do it for them. The non-fat people don’t need to have their teachers teach them that fat kids are bad; like Duke, they absorb their cultural messages. Fat people are the object of ridicule; therefore fat people are bad and/or deserving of abuse.
Look at the images of the overweight in the media. It is damned hard to find positive images of the overweight. People tout Camryn Manheim. I agree that as a person she is a positive image. But if you watch “The Practice,” you get to see her as a successful lawyer — but who finds her acceptable to date? A serial killer! The majority of roles for the overweight are as the comic relief. That’s why, personally, I was never fond of John Candy’s work. I never saw him play anything other than an offensive, buffoonish fat person. It even goes down to kid’s movies ---- most Disney movies have a fat kid that has no character development, but is simply there to be the butt of fat jokes. Think of “Meatballs” (Was that Disney?) Think of “The Mighty Ducks.” That one provides the all-time prize image of how to treat the fat kid — let’s tie him to the goal and all take shots at him with hockey pucks! But he’s fat, so our cruelty is FUNNY!
This one prejudice is so deeply entrenched in our culture I don’t know when we’ll be able to get rid of it. I think the first step, though, is to keep pointing it out for what it is — prejudice. If we, as a society, can continue working toward the goal of opposing all types of bigotry, (How’s THAT for a lofty goal?), perhaps eventually it will reach our consciousness that this is one we also need to weed out.
YWalker…that deserves…
<Stoid stands, applauds wildly, whistles> Bravissimo!
Beautiful! Perfect! And totally true! (LOVE that book, by the way, one of my all time faves, I’ve read it about 8 times)
And while I am so happy about Camryn Manheim, you make an EXCELLENT point… She’s an attractive woman, it sure would be nice if they would show her on a date with an attractive man…I’m sure Camryn is lobbying for it.
And while we’re on the subject (sorry to sort of drag things OFF subject so much, but it’s a hot issue for me)…
I still had dates when I weighed 260 pounds. Men still expressed an interest and asked me out. Fairly frequently. I would never go so far as to say my weight didn’t make a DIFFERENCE in my dating habits or in the men I attracted. But…I still had relationships with handsome, successful men. I certainly was never forced to resort to serial killers.
This is one of the reasons, consequently, that I still become angry when someone disparages how I ‘used to be.’ I ‘used to be’ me, just like I am now. I was STILL an attractive, useful, worthy person. I am no more so now that I’m (fairly) slender.
Stoid, you’ll be a more pleasant person if you stop trying so hard to find an enemy.
You brought up obesity in your last post to me. People who have even a limited understanding of what it means to be morbidly obese would certainly never discuss that condition in the terms I’ve quoted above. It’s ludicrous to suggest that anyone would. When I think of those who are overweight, I consider the majority, not the few who suffer real, physical limitations.
You can put your fingers in your ears and scream all day long, but you can’t make disappear all the people who have managed to lose weight and who continue to stay thin. I will certainly never argue that the sacrifices made in order to accomplish this are often enormous, but I am forced by the evidence to recognize that it is possible. There is nothing you can offer to suggest that it is impossible for those who do not have specific medical conditions to adjust their weight.
This is not a judgement.
Not all people see value in making the same sacrifices and enduring the same struggles. That’s why humanity is so damn cool. However, we are not so dissimilar that a thing possible for some is completely impossible for anyone else, barring actual physical shortcomings.
Do you understand this now? You can, in fact, accomplish anything you want, but you are not expected to want any specific thing except by fools. How have you taken such offense at this concept?
Allow me to point out, Tymp, that you have fallen into line with so many around here, and made two copmmon mistakes: one, you miss the subtle, but very important distinction between attacks on your words and attacks on you personally, and as a result, when your words are attacked you turn around and attack me personally.
I did not make disparaging remarks about you as a person, a poster, or in any other way. You have done so twice with me. If you want to continue to debate ideas, you are welcome to attack what I say, but if you continue to attack who I am, I will not respond. Thanks.
I don’t have time to go into detail in responding to you, except to say this: in the rest of your response, you continued to assume things about what I was thinking and feeling and responding to. Please don’t. Stick with what I say.
And what I said was what I said. What it meant is that your assertion was ridiculous; almost all fat people very much perceive their fat to be a hindrance in their lives, both romantically and in many other ways. (That was the original comment). Primarily because the world is so judgmental about it. Feeling the way does not automatically lead to success in changing it, which is what you asserted. Nor does feeling that being fat is a hindrance mean that fat people think that they are bad people. Nor does feeling that you made a foolish assertion about this topic mean that I feel it was judgmental in nature, merely misinformed.
later
**
[/QUOTE]
Forgive me for butting in when I haven’t read the entire thread. I have a ton of things to do before next week, but I promise to read it all when I get the time.
I have to agree that some people are fat because they eat too much and don’t exercise enough. However, there are enough exceptions to the rule that makes this argument lose a lot of it’s validity.
Here’s a game I challenge you to try:
Here are descriptions of three people, tell me what you think they look like.
-
This person lives alone in a filthy house with a yard full of weeds and overgrown grass. This person does not work but lives off of a huge inheritance. He spends his life alternating between laying on the couch watching Court TV and sitting on the lounge chair on his front porch. He won’t even walk to the mailbox 30 feet from his house but once a week. He rarely baths and stinks. He won’t cook so he mostly lives off pizza deliveries, KFC, and Twinkies. He also downs a sixpack of beer and a quart if ice cream most days. You couldn’t get him to break a sweat if you lighted a fire under his ass.
-
This person walks 5 miles a day, eats a healthy diet that doesn’t include sugars or sweets, eats fruit and vegetables for snacks, bowls on a league 3 nights a week, works full time. This person has an immaculate house, garden (vegetable and flower), and yard due to the constant work she does.
-
This person works a full time job, is a single parent, cares for a home, kids, pets, large yard, carpentry, minor auto repairs, home remodeling, paying bills, making dinner, kid’s school projects, etc. TV, sleep, and using the bathroom are luxuries IF there is time. This person has never, ever been accused of being lazy. This person jogs a couple of miles two nights a week, never misses high impact aerobic classes three times a week, the kick boxing class on Tuesday, and the power-flex weight lifting class on Fridays. The last three are all done during lunch hour in place of eating lunch. This person spends most weekends on the hiking trails or playing baseball in the park or some other physical activity. This person does not eat sweets or fried food. Meat and dairy products are almost gone from the diet and meals are eaten in small helpings that mostly consist of fruits and vegetables.