The last remaining acceptable stereotype. . .

Great Debates
201

Just to clarify, Scylla, which of the following most accurately reflects your view?

A) Looking at a fat person, I often negatively revise my estimate of their good judgment, since most likely they have chosen not to remedy their situation, and that shows disrespect/lack-of-responsibility for their body

B) Looking at a fat person, I store away a bit of knowledge which then combined with extra knowledge (such as that they watch TV all day, eat to extraordinary excess or have been warned by a doctor to shape up lest they soon die) may lead me to decide that they are likely exercising poor judgment

C) Looking at a fat person, I use that as one small detail that may indicate increase health risks, and I will not form an opinion one way or another until I know whether or not there are other factors of which I am unaware that mitigate that added risk. If I feel I know the person very well and can reasonably assume I have all the facts, I may form the opinion that this particular individual is exercising poor judgment.

202

Alki:

That was eloquent. I wish I had said it that way.

203

Alki, I appreciate your story and the time it took you to write all that (with citations, no less!) but I still can’t help feeling that most fat people (or at least most fat people who are likely to read this forum) are aware of the mechanics of weight loss. Maybe I’m just projecting, but I certainly have known since I was a teenager that more food without more exercise creates fat, more exercise without more food shrinks fat, etc. The various diet programs don’t get around this basic system – they just provide structure that helps some people work within it.

Forgive me for being a market freak, but this is a lot like investing, really. The secret is so incredibly simple: “Buy low, Sell high.”. Yet the majority of investors don’t make millions, because there’s an incredible amount of stress and discipline required to learn to judge what’s high and what’s low and to stick it out when all your stocks are in the toilet.

Same thing here. We all know to eat less and exercise more, but as you know, the process requires a lot of stress and discipline, and some people just don’t think it’s worth it compared to the other things they could be doing with that effort (like making millions on the stock market! ;)).

My only aim here is to allow people to make that choice without second-guessing their judgment. I admire those who have lost lots of weight and shaped up their bodies. I also admire those who have faced other challenges in their lives. There are many worthy accomplishments and we should consider all of them when judging a person’s character, not just a lack of the most visible one.

204

Alki said it with a noticeable lack of judgement; I’m still hearing judgement backed up by lack of research in your posts on this topic.

205

Mearra:

If I had two choose one, I’d choose C.

If I could pick a spot, I’d be somewhere between b and C.

I don’t, and I don’t think very many people reserve judgement well. We are constantly operating under a best guess scenario and the more honest of us are constantly reevaluating that position as new information is available. I do try to avoid committing myself until I have a high degree of confidence in my opinion, though.

206

(Oops, I didn’t make it clear that my post was a response to Scylla’s comment)

207

featherlou:

Well of course I judge people. It starts the moment I first see them, and contrary to what Biggirl said, just looking at somebody is an interraction. You are perceivng what they have presented to you in whatever forum you see them.

It’s valid info.

You meet somebody, you look them over, how do they hold themselves? What do they they say? What are your impressions? How do they present themselves? You form a quick conditional opinion which changes as more info becomes available.

Is this somebody I like? Are they direct, honest? What conversation should I engage in? Do I want to learn more?

Judgement is a part of life. Before you go down a set of stairs, don’t you judge them to see how best to proceed before you going marching off into space?

If the carpet slides, do you reevaluate your opinion and act appropriately, or do you just assume that whoever installed it knew what they were doing?

The difference between a valid observation leading to a conditional inference and stereotyping prejudice, is always tough, but it’s one that we realistically have to make every day.

If you look at a wall and say “That wall is green, therefore it is unstable, and may collapse, I will have to be careful,” you have judged poorly.

If however you make that same observation because you observe water seeping through it, it is reasonable.

The conclusions that I’m drawing, and how far I’m willing to go with them are pretty basic and obvious stuff. I literally can’t beleive that people were asserting obesity doesn’t follow the laws of physics, and asking me to prove the correlation between food and weight.

Of course I judge people, to the best of my abilities, based on all the information that is presented. Automatically, I revise my opinions and have degrees of confidence in them that continue to change, based on additional input. I expect it’s the same for everyone.

I am shocked by the idea that people aren’t responsible for themselves, and the ridiculous assertion that how they handle that responsibility is perhaps the primary insight into a person’s character (and no, I’m not talking about just weight. Though how one treats their body is certainly a valid part of the picture)

208

Alki, what an amazing story. Sounds similar to mine except that in the case of someone who started life as an overweight child, I would think it would be even MORE difficult. Bravo!

I did want to add something to your comments about groups such as Fat?So! not in argument really, but just in a partial defense.

In my own personal experience, I had to find enough value in myself that I felt I was worthy of taking care of. You don’t treat someone well if you hate them, simple as that. So like most PEOPLE, not just overweight people, I had to go through the struggle of finding something valuable about myself so that I could care enough to make changes in my life. And I had to do so while I looked horrible to myself in the mirror, while I suffered the indignities brought about by contact with others who were hard on me and judgemental.

To this day, I sometimes wish that I’d been able to gain a little of that “I’m beautiful no matter what” attitude. Because that attitude doesn’t ONLY serve to allow people to remain the way they are without feeling they need to change. Sometimes it allows them to, say, walk into a health club with their heads up and to keep their physical appearance in proportion to their other values as a human being. In this case, I think a little “defense” can be beneficial to the person working to change.

-L

209

featherlou:

and that last sentence should have been “isn’t a primary insight” not “is.”

210

In that case, we don’t disagree on the fundamentals, just perhaps on how vocally such judgments should be expressed.

I regularly make judgments about people despite lack of sufficient data. I just believe that despite any half-formed opinions of their character, individuals deserve to be treated with courtesy and respect until there is sufficient evidence to indicate otherwise.

What does that “courtesy and respect” mean here?

A) Obviously not calling names or talking negatively about her (“Look how FAT she is – I’m glad I’m not her”)

B) Not assuming that I have more information and would make a better judgment. If I don’t trust her judgment, why should she trust mine. I’m just likely to sound condescending and rude if I give a sermon on healthy living. (“Doesn’t she realize that that burger is so unhealthy. No wonder she looks like that. If she’d just put down that book and get some exercise, she’d be much happier and healthier”)

C) Not discounting her other achievements, and always recognizing that those accomplishments may very well completely dwarf her weight issues (“Piano playing isn’t going to help her live longer! She writes a good novel, but that’s not going to help her when she’s DEAD at age 40. Maybe she programs well, but that’s cause she’s a fat tub of lard who sits in front of the computer all day eating twinkies”)

D) If it’s someone I deal with regularly, not ruling out the possibility of friendship just based on superficial data (“I don’t want to be seen with her!” “She’s obviously too lazy to help us out with this project” “Someone like that wouldn’t be interested in the office volleyball team”)

What do you think?

211

Mearra;

I would think those are attitudes that a reasonable and kind person should follow.

Where I think the problem lies is over the issue of obesity itself, not how any person should be treated.

I deny the idea that obesity is a random and unchangeable occurence, and not a product and consequence of one’s life choices.

212

I don’t think anyone’s going to disagree with you that excusing rare circumstances, obesity is fundamentally a choice.

When you get right down to it, almost everything including life itself is a choice. It’s the degree and difficulty that’s interesting to discuss. Take the following:

Gender
Race
Sexual Orientation
Poverty
Obesity
Cigarette Addiction
Sexual Ethics
Work Ethic
Political Party
Muscle Tone
Hair Color
Today’s Lunch Menu

If you’re not otherwise handicapped, it’s possible to change any of those – thus at some level, they are all “choices”. However, nobody’s going to argue that just because you can go get a gender change or enough plastic surgery to mask your origins, it’s okay to look down on you for your current gender/race.

At the same time, people are free to judge you for dying your hair green, espousing Republican/Democrat views, not meeting deadlines, etc.

It’s the ones in the middle that are interesting. A gay man could lead a straight life with a lot of effort, discipline and unhappiness. Do we expect that of him? An impoverished person could forgoe having children, work 100 hours a week and live a bare minimum lifestyle to boost himself to the next economic level. Do we scorn him if he only works 40?

It seems like Obesity is right on the cusp. It’s one of those things that’s possible to change, but difficult for most people, requiring lots of sacrifice, discipline and unhappiness. Of course we admire people who go for it, but we shouldn’t dismiss those who decide not to, and we might even regret someone’s decision to lose weight if it leads her through years of unhappiness and obsession at the expense of other pursuits.

So YES it’s usually a choice. But that doesn’t mean it’s usually the WORST choice (to which I believe you’ve already agreed)

213

You have made the point here that Scylla continues to ignore…the relative ease and difficulty of certain “choices”. He speaks of the choices involved in controlling one’s weight as though they were no more complex or difficult than deciding what route to take home from work. That may in fact be the case for people who do not suffer from significant weight problems, but it is not the case with the truly obese.

But both of you are veering way off the point, which is how these choices reflect on a person’s character. They don’t. Do you think Scylla will ever see this?

ALKI:

Your points are all well made, but I believe it was meara who said that this is not new information to most of us. You certainly haven’t seen me arguing that being fat is a good thing. I live it every day and I can assure anyone who’s wondering about it that it isn’t. And I also know what it takes to lose it. [sub](And while I do not wish to hijack this thread into a new debate about what works and what doesn’t, I would like to simply point out that there is a great deal of scientific evidence, not to mention a huge amount of anecdotal evidence, to support the idea that for some people, carbohydrates are the fat-makers. It takes painful starvation level dieting for me to lose weight via calorie restriction, and even then it just isn’t that effective. But the weight comes off when I cut starchy/surgary carbs out of my life. I do not think Atkins is healthy, but other controlled-carb eating plans are, and they are the only thing that I can really tolerate that works. And before anyone tells me that I’m cutting calories by cutting carbs, save it. When I live on a controlled-carb diet, my calories are as high or higher than they are now, because I like fatty meat and cheese.)[/sub]

There has been a scrambling of the issues in this thread, and I’d just like to make it clear that I do not advocate giving up the fight to lose weight by anyone. What I do advocate is separating the fight to lose weight from all feelings of self-worth. It has no bearing.

stoid

214

Yes Mearra, what you say makes good sense. I’ve never suggested differently.

I don’t know if you’ve been here for this whole debate, but basically I’ve been arguing that what choices people make determines who they are. Weight is one of those things. How people deal with it, like anything else in life, tells something about that person.

215

Stoid opined:

This is just silly.

I can’t think of anything that tells more about somebody’s character than how they handle life’s difficulties.

216

Maybe the difference of opinion with Scylla is basically semantic; what he (or other posters, including myself) is calling judgement might be better labelled “opinion”.
Judgement: That person must be lazy and poorly self-controlled; look at her weight problem.
Opinion: I believe that people who are overweight could be making better decisions for themselves.
You can form opinions on anything, based on any information. For a judgement to be sound, however, it should be based on facts, not opinions.

217

Absolutely. And how silly of you to think that because a person is fat, that you have any clue what difficulties they have faced and overcome, or are facing and overcoming, or will face and overcome. You don’t. You don’t have the faintest notion. You don’t know what it took for them to become fat, or what it takes for them to lose it. You have no idea how long they’ve been fat, whether they have lost a great deal already, or whether they have been thin 10 different times in their life. You don’t know why they became fat in the first place, or how it might serve them. (For many abused women, being fat is a coping mechanism that helps them feel safe from a world that has violated them,were you aware of that?) You * have no idea *. All you know is that at the moment you are looking at them, they are fat.

So, to judge a person’s character (and by implication, the way they handle life’s difficulties) based on the simple fact of them being fat is…just silly.

218

Absolutely. And how silly of you to think that because a person is fat, that you have any clue what difficulties they have faced and overcome, or are facing and overcoming, or will face and overcome. You don’t. You don’t have the faintest notion. You don’t know what it took for them to become fat, or what it takes for them to lose it. You have no idea how long they’ve been fat, whether they have lost a great deal already, or whether they have been thin 10 different times in their life. You don’t know why they became fat in the first place, or how it might serve them. (For many abused women, being fat is a coping mechanism that helps them feel safe from a world that has violated them,were you aware of that?) You * have no idea *. All you know is that at the moment you are looking at them, they are fat.

So, to judge a person’s character (and by implication, the way they handle life’s difficulties) based on the simple fact of them being fat is…just silly.

219

Stoid:

Do not put words in my mouth.
Don’t presume my motivations.
Don’t project your problems onto me.
Do not deliberately misconstrue my meaning.

220

Haven’t yet, don’t plan to in the future.

I assume you mean “presume” in the following sense: "To take for granted as being true in the absence of proof to the contrary. " I don’t believe I’ve taken a single thing for granted as being true, I’ve been working entirely from what you’ve presented. In fact, I don’t think I’ve even addressed “motivation” at all. I have no idea what your motivation is.

No worries here. I don’t really have any problems to speak of at the moment, except for the fact that I’m overweight and it’s tough to lose it, hardly something I’d be “projecting” on to you.

I don’t and haven’t. I may not have understood what you meant, but I did not deliberately misconstrue. Again, I’m just working with what you’re giving.

Now, review the four demands you made upon me in regards to you, and reverse them.

stoid