The last remaining acceptable stereotype. . .

it seems to me, is what he assumes based on the data he’s given, and that’s where much disagreement lies.

There is certainly some inferences one can fairly draw from a person’s physical being, they just shouldn’t be as far-reaching as Scylla would have them be.

I see a woman walking down the street who is 5’6" and probably weighs around 300 pounds, easily 150 pounds overweight…

What can I reasonably infer based on this information?

Well, I can infer that this woman is likely to find physical activity very difficult. Hauling that much weight around is difficult for anyone. So if she was applying for a job where speed and stamina were called for, she would not be a good candidate.

I can also infer, not unreasonably, that this woman likes to eat and finds depriving herself as much as is necessary, and for as long as is necessary for her to be slim, is a very difficult challenge for her that she has probably not met * lately * (since meeting that challenge is a daily grind for people who are or have been morbidly obese). It’s also possible that she has medical problems which make weight loss impossible, but statistically, it is more likely that she has a normal enough system that losing weight is certainly within her control, it just might take a great deal of her control, and require that she maintain that control virtually every waking moment.

And that’s really about it. There are details about actually being fat and what her experiences of life have probably been that I can also infer, but about her character and her abilities, this is really as far as I can go with the information I have, which is only that she is fat. I cannot and should not infer a single thing about how hard she works at her job, how committed and loyal a friend she is, how dependable, how emotionally strong, how good she may be at following through on projects or how persistent she is at * anything* other than diet and exercise.

The flip side of the coin that Scylla has in his hand is the person (and I’ve known several personally, they aren’t at all uncommon) whose vanity is such that they will spend time, energy and money doing whatever it takes to be as fit as they can be, but devote virtually no energy at all to anything else. They are not dependable because they are self-involved. They are so vain that the only thing about them that is in any way interesting is their physiques.

If it makes sense to extrapolate all kinds of judgment about a person’s ability to be dependable, hard-working, and tough based on whether they are slim or not, then it would follow that we would assume that people who are slim are hard-working, persistent, dependable, etc. and that is perfectly ridiculous. But using Scylla’s reasoning, it follows.

Scylla’s reasoning blows, pure and simple.

Well Biggirl, it goes like this.

And, I beleive that this is a fairly sound standpoint, logically.

Being very overweight is a negative thing. There’s no realistic away around the health effects.

Certain people have illnesses which cause them to be obese, or make it imprudent to exercise or try to control their weight.

Basic laws of physics suggest that you can’t weigh more than what you consume minus what you burn. For some people the genetic dial of metabolism is set high, and for others it is set low, but there’s no escaping the first premise.

Unlike much of life, you have direct control over what you eat, and how much you exercise. You have to spheres of control over your weight. There is lots in life that you can’t control, but these two things are yours to command. There are areas of this world where there are almost no obese people at all, because life entails too much work, and not enough excess food.

We are blessed that we live in a society where for the most part we don’t have to worry about getting our bodies enough fuel to complete the work we need to do so that we and our families may survive.

We are blessed that we have the option to master ourselves, be whatever we can possibly be. Never forget that it was a postal clerk who went to read at a Library, and applied himself to discover one of the great secrets of the universe, thus changing the course of human history.

Our wills can accomplish so much.

Yet for the most part we don’t. Our very success spoils us.

We fail at problems that prove our very decadence. We fail to master ourselves. We directly control two out of the three axis that determine our weight.

Hugh Glass crawled over a hundred miles, naked through the autumn wilderness. He had been left for dead by his friends after being horribly mauled by a bear.

He chose to live when there was absolutely no good reason to think that he possibly could.

Yet some would suggest that it means nothing that so many of us lack the will to pass up a Mcdonald’s value meal and have a salad instead.

I think it’s a pretty fucking telling fact.

So you enocunter somebody, and you learn one fact. That person is seriously obese.

What does this tell you?

  1. Illness. Enough said.

  2. Doesn’t care. Other things are more important. I can understand this. If however, it gets to the point where health is endangered one wonders about balance and priorities. To neglect the basic maintenance of our body because we are too busy is as stupid as to fail to change the oil in a car because we’re too busy driving.

  3. Would like to change but hasn’t. When I lived in NJ every spring people would come to jog around the reservoir. Those first months, there were always quite a few pretty damn overweight people, trying to get in shape. I truly loved seeing it. As I passed them, I knew that a month from now 95% would be gone. But 5% wouldn’t. What seperated the two? Was there some common factor? No. Not really. It was almost impossible to tell. A couple of things did stick out though. If you saw somebody sitting down, you usually wouldn’t see them again. Strolling was almost as bad. A lot of the more successful it would seem, would run, walk fast when they must, then run again.

One thing really sticks out.

My brother and I were jogging. Up ahead, a fairly overweight very soft looking 15-16 year old looked back at us and started picking up the pace. As we closed in, he started sprinting, it looked ridiculous, and we almost laughed as we passed him. As soon as we passed him he slowed down severely, huffing and puffing.

A couple of days later the same thing happened. Curiosity got the better of me and I asked him what he was doing. He told me that when he saw somebody coming up behind him, he tried to estimate where they would pass him. He would pick a spot as far ahead of that point as he dared, and see if he could hold us off and beat us to that point.

He was doing this every time somebody came up behind him! When we saw him we’d shout “Where?” He’d shout back something like “boathouse,” or "2.3 (mile marker,) or “blue car” and haul ass. My brother and I would step it up, and try to beat him.

He almost always lost. Almost. He always called the point past what he thought he could win. Once in a while he’d exceed himself.

There was no question that this kid was going to succeed. We didn’t see him all the time, but we learned to watch and try to slow down and save our strength. He was pushing us too! As the summer went on, the races were no longer little sprints. They’d become quarter or even half-mile duels that left my brother and I gasping in the grass.

When fall came along, we saw him rarely. He was moving to fast for us to catch him. I’m sure that it wouldn’t have been long before he came up behind us but winter came, and I moved.

There was a lot of character in that kid. What makes it so special is that for whatever reason, 95% failed where he succeeded. I acknowledge his character and will, but can’t pretend there was nothing special or exceptional about it, a positive quality that others lacked at that time.

Courtesy you get for being human. Respect has to be earned.

There are a lot of reasons why somebody might be obese, Some are neutral, most are negative. There’s not any positive reasons that I can credibly imagine.

Meara:

Not playing the piano isn’t going to kill me. I’m not talking about being a triathelete, I’m talking about minimal health maintenance necessary.

Ah… so this all comes down to lifespan and trying to avoid death by fat. In that case, it seems to be even MORE of a personal choice, not less of one.

A peek into my personal databank: I have normal cholesterol, I can still run at least 3 miles at a time when necessary, so don’t suffer any terrible loss of mobility and I don’t have any heart or blood sugar problems, except a lifelong murmur. I also happen to know (being me and all) that my older relatives, most of whom were overweight, died of cancer, not weight-related disease.

Furthermore, I know that due to my current work schedule and location, daily gym-going will leave me tired and very bitter (I’m already working/driving more than 12 hours a day), so being that I’m pretty healthy to begin with and that I enjoy mental exercise more than physical, that would be quite a drop in quality of life just to grab at more quantity of life.

Maybe you think it should be worth it for me, but is it really? How do we know I’m not going to get cancer at age 60 and wish I had written a book instead of ellipticizing? In 50 years, are people likely to remember me more for being of average weight than for spending my time on more interesting pursuits?

These things are both true, but they in no way negate the other side of the argument. As you have said above, people have different costs to being thin. Some are genetically predisposed to being thin, others obese. And, you do have direct control over how much you eat or exercise. As has been noted before, one just cannot stop eating to lose weight effectively; the metabolism slows incredibly and weight loss becomes exceedingly slow. So, this leaves us with exercise to lose weight. Exercise takes time.

Agreed, and this is the reason that they are all thin. It costs very little to be thin; they get all the exercise they need at work, and not enough food to cause them to gain weight. As you have noted, we live in a land of plenty. It is a blessing to some, but a curse to others. The worker that has a job where he/she is essentially immobile has to use his/her free time to exercise.

Say you are an obese, working mother of three. If you only have a few hours of free time in a day, what would be a better pursuit of your time? Exercise to lose weight, or spending your few hours of leisure to be with your loved ones, to take care of them as they have so little time with their mother. Surely you can see a scenario such as this?

This is the point I was trying to make earlier. Sure, one could become thin if one really wanted. But would the health benefits outweigh the losses incurred by a rigorous program of exercise, one that takes a person away from more productive things. Sure, extra life would be gained. But, would that extra life in the aggregate be worth as much as the shorter, but fuller life? This is a decision best left to every individual. You choose health, others choose obesity. We all make our own choices.

Mearra:

If you can run 3 miles, either you’re not obese, or you have the cardiovascular system of King Kong.

Johnny:

Yeah, I agree. It is a cost to benefit analysis. There are excesses on both ends of the curve. Both are examples of poor judgement and prioritization.

There seems to be some confusion again, as to what it is I’m suggesting.

I am not suggesting that everybody needs to conform to some ideal of beauty, nor am I suggesting that people spend their lives exercising instead of living life.

I am suggesting that if you are obese past a certain point that is going to vary from person to person, it can have dramatic and severe health consequences. It can have a dramatic effect on quality of life.

If you are far and unmistakably beyond that point, it may be apparent at first glance.

I take nothing away from John Candy’s genius by mentioning that he failed terribly to address this. One can no longer say that he is the less for it. He is in fact, no more.

I don’t pretend that it’s not bad.

I am more than 20% over my ideal body weight, which I believe qualifies me, and yes I can certainly run 3 miles. Furthermore, a year ago, I was able to take much longer runs, but still weighed more than 120%. (Before that, I had reached a point of diminished mobility which inspired me to to run and rollerblade for about 6 months until my fat-to-muscle ratio was rearranged a bit and I could outlast most of my friends).

Now, I’m no longer in a job where I have the luxury of running/rollerblading everyday at lunch, so I just go to the gym once in a while to keep myself at what I’ve accepted as my personal minimum. I really do enjoy running and rollerblading quite a bit, so I expect if I’ll be at it again if the opportunity arises, but I’m also quite sick of taking 2+ hours out of a day just to go to the gym (1 hour there and back and at least an hour work-out).

In any case, I bet you wouldn’t know any of that by looking at me, would you? (Your statement above implies that you’d assume quite the opposite.)

When and how did this become a question of whether obesity is a positive thing, or whether it would be a positive thing to not be obese, or otherwise do whatever is necessary to have better health?!?

Back it up - no question that strong is better than weak, fit is better than unfit, flexible is better than stiff, strong heart and lungs better than flabby heart and lungs. Slim is usually better than fat (not always, byt any means. Better to be fit and fat than thin and unfit.) Better for the obese mother to spend some time taking better care of her health so she can continue to be with those kids.

None of that is at issue.

What is at issue is:

If a person finds the challenge of accomplishing these goals, and maintaining them, difficult to impossible * at the moment * (could change at any time, has probably been less or more difficult in the past, will be less or more difficult in the future, remember, it is a CONSTANT challenge) and as a result, they are fat, ** does this single (if very visible) fact reliably tell us anything whatsoever about any other aspect of this person’s ability, personality or character?**

Answer: ABSOLUTELY NOT.

Therefore, Scylla and others who think as he does are WRONG (he really hates being wrong) when they judge and stereotype fat people based on the fact that they are fat. BUT, they are largely allowed to cling to these stereotypes unchallenged, which is Biggirls point, which is what this thread is all about.

What is remarkable about all this is that Scylla continues to argue his point that “if you are fat you are x” without a single shred of evidence, merely opinion, which makes such stereotyping even more galling, and even more shocking that it is being tolerated here on the The Straight Dope, where we do not tolerate such things…supposedly.

stoid

I think that’s pretty obvious.

Of course, if a person gets to the point where his fat is truly ruining his life, don’t you think that he will do something about it? Seems to me that if he’s NOT doing something about it, then either:

A) It’s beyond his control (e.g. medical condition) and
he should be treated with compassion, or…

B) He does not yet feel that the benefits outweigh the
costs (and thus, it is NOT ruining his quality of life)
and thus shouldn’t bother anyone else’s either

Why the assumption that people can’t make that assessment about themselves intelligently? Do you think that they’re secretly miserable and are just deluding themselves that they enjoy any quality of life?

(I ask this because you seem to be implying that a fat person would not have the foresight to investigate his condition, whereas in my experience, people tend to read up on their medical problems and the options/risks available, even if they decide the treatment’s not worth the cure. There’s probably little you can tell the obese person about the health risks of obesity that he doesn’t already know, and few diets you can suggest that he hasn’t already read about, if only out of sheer curiosity. Thus when you point to health risks as the reason he should start exercising right away, you’re saying that his informed decision otherwise indicates some kind of personal failing, instead of gracefully yielding to his superior knowledge of his own situation.)

Ummm. Meara. People exercise poor judgement all the time.

What can you tell from this?

That they have poor judgement. Or good judgement but lack the will to follow through.

Incidentally, I thought you all should know that apparently, fat is NOT the last remaining acceptable stereotype (or at least not the only remaning debated stereotype).

Take a look at these gems from the under-class thread:

First, we have a fine specimen of generalization and contempt:

msmith537 wrote:

Then we move on to the oh-so-helpful advice on how to fix the situation.

dude said:

Oh, but don’t feel too bad – it goes both ways:

SpyderA48 said:

And it just goes on and on… Sound familiar? Can’t you just close your eyes and hear “Fat people are fat for a reason. Either they’re ignorant, unmotivated, or lazy”, and then the inevitable condescending “Sedentary lifestyles are usually the biggest problem. Don’t drive to the store – get out and walk. You don’t need that close parking spot. A few months of regular exercise ought to do the trick – it worked for me.”

But how can you decide whether their judgment is good or bad in this situation without knowing more than their weight? How can you even presuppose a trend one way or the other?

Do you really honestly believe that 51+% of fat people (armed with specific knowledge of their own situations) are less capable of making a good decision about their health than you (who knows only their weight)?

It’s quite clear that Scylla’s opinion is based on nothing but his personal prejudices about overweightness. It is also quite clear that nothing short of a blue bolt from heaven is going to change his mind. Why do we continue to give him a forum to air his disgusting opinions?

Why, KellyM, surely you’re aware that we’re all a bunch of GLUTTONS here! :wink:

Kelly… your frustration is understandable. But remember, we’re here to fight ignorance, no matter how entrenched it may be! And while it is a sure bet that Scylla will never, ever, ever concede that he is unreasonably bigoted about fat people, it is possible that others, less pigheaded than he, are reading this thread and allowing themselves to be enlightened.

That’s the weird thing about the SDMB… there are what, 10,000 registered users? And how many UNregistered lurkers? This thread has close to 3000 views, but only 194 posts. Those 194 posts have been made by what…20 posters, maybe? So a very tiny percentage of us actually provide the education/amusement/content for the whole community. There are vast hordes of silent observers…and we can only hope that in doing public battle with Scylla and all other posters with ignorant and bigoted opinions, we may reach those silent ones who agreed with them at the start.

Just doing our part…

It’s your slippery slope. You ski on it.

Mearra:

I never said I was making decision, or was qualified to do so. I have repeatedly asserted the opposite.

I merely form an opinion based on their decision. It may be one of admiration, it may be neutral, it may be conditional, or it may be the opinion that it’s a bad decision.

Umm, is there any point in forming an opinion about a decision if you don’t examine the data at hand in the same way and determine that there was a better option??

That’s just ignorance and practically defines the term “jumping to conclusions”. It’s like me insisting that a female who is a doctor has made a bad career decision because I suppose in my head that many female doctors have children and should be home nurturing them instead of spending so many hours in the office.

To bring it back to the subject, what on Earth is the point of forming the opinion that somebody exercised poor judgment in choosing not to lose weight until you know:

A) How happy they are with their body at present
B) What they do with the time they’d lose to exercise
C) What other desires/obligations they have put before exercise
D) What mental/physical challenges they face

(A measures benefit, B, C, and D measure cost, and I aver that you need ALL that information to form an intelligent opinion about whether or not they should choose to lose weight)

I’ve been following this thread for the past few days with a mixture of frustration and sadness. I’m sorry to stray a little from the OP, but–as Stoid pointed out–hundreds of people may be reading this, and I don’t want them to go away with the wrong impression. I know that Great Debates isn’t the best place for personal “testimony,” but I thought it might be appropriate in this case.

I own an ancient tape recording made on my last day of 4th grade. My friends all wish me a happy summer and a fun time at summer camp. Then Sarah comes on–the girl I’ve had a burning crush on all year. Apparently, she is holding a camera.

“I took pictures of everyone but you,” she says. “You wouldn’t fit in the frame.”

She laughs. I laugh.

For nearly two decades, I laughed at myself. My eyes would wet slightly and my face would feel flush, but I kept laughing. When friends or bullies taunted, I said my rehearsed comebacks. The taunting abated as I grew older, but the flush of shame remained.

I’ve read plenty of “popular” books on weight loss & control and picked up much conflicting information. Eat more protein–no, eat less protein! Banish junk food from your house–no, fill all your cupboards with junk food! Take this pill and lose weight in your sleep! Sweep fat out of the digestive system like a broom! Looking back on the “science” behind some of these schemes, it’s not surprising that I’d never managed to lose an ounce.

I seemed predestined for a life of flab. Everyone in my family is fat, in the 250-300 pound range. About five years ago, I looked in the mirror at my protruding belly and thought, “That’s it, that’s me forever–it’s in the genes, it’s in the metabolism, it’s in the luck,” and went on with my life. Popular books and articles claimed that my body had a “set weight” or “preferred weight” that it would try to maintain at all costs, and that it was actually healthier for me not to fight it. My doctor said I was otherwise “healthy,” whatever that meant, but I didn’t feel healthy. I felt tired, emotionally drained, depressed.

Then, a few years ago, I did something a little crazy. I started reading medical books & journals. I’m not talking about books by Oprah or Richard Simmons–I mean serious, 10-pound textbooks and journals printed in two columns of 9-point text, books by and for the people on the cutting edge of metabolism research. They were way over my head at the time, but I just skimmed over the stuff I didn’t understand and tried to get the main points.

What I found stopped me in my tracks. Much “popular” lore was wrong, dead wrong. Some of it was disproven decades ago. I don’t mean to sound evangelical, but what I found changed my life. It’s something that some people might not want to hear, but it has been demonstrated in studies and experiments again and again and again.

In a word, the body is a machine. It is not a blob of jelly. It is subject to the laws of physics just like your car engine or balls dropped from the Leaning Tower of Pisa. Learning about how this machine actually works was perhaps the most fascinating journey I’ve ever undertaken. The path that food follows as it gets broken down, stored, fetched, converted into useful energy–it’s incredibly complex yet breathtakingly beautiful.

And–in all but a small minority of persons–it functions like clockwork. Two people, given similar height, exercise habits, and diet will be approximately the same weight. Note that I said approximately. YES, there are variations from person to person, or even for a single person at different times. YES, there are diseases that cause some people to get fat despite low-cal diets. YES, I know I’m simplifying. But only a tiny slice of people with metabolic disorders can weight 300 pounds on a 1600-Calorie-per-day diet. Fat tissue is not “metabolically inert” as one poster said. Absolutely false. Adipose tissue is pretty low-maintenance, but it does use energy for cell functions and vascularization.

Indeed, a “genetic disposition” to obesity generally means a genetic disposition to increased appetite. It’s not that the body treats food differently so much as that the mind won’t turn off the hunger signals at the right time. “Zucker rats,” the rodents often used in obesity research, are genetically predisposed never to feel full. Their body chemistry is pretty much the same as a regular rat’s, but they won’t stop eating.

I didn’t really believe this at the time. I always thought that I ate the same amount, if not less, than my thin friends. In fact, I set out to prove the research wrong. For one week, I wrote down everything I ate–even coffee and sticks of gum. I added it all together at the end of the week and discovered that I was averaging over 2,000 Calories per day–far more than I should have been eating with my sedentary lifestyle at the time.

Armed with my new understanding, I made a concerted effort to record everything I ate. I didn’t diet, but when I had to write down every calorie, I did start to think twice before popping that potato chip in my mouth. I needed to come up with an extra 4-5 hours per week to visit the gym. I found it by giving up television completely. As I started to see results, I no longer cared whether Ross and Rachel were going to get back together. I found that the jocks at the gym pretty much ignored me. Heck, who cares what they think anyhow?

After two and a half years, I’ve lost 60 pounds. I know that my struggle is not over–one thing I’ve read repeatedly in the scientific literature is the statistics on those who gain the weight back. It’s a battle. No, I’m not one of those people who can “lose weight easily.” I fought and cried and moped for years and it took concerted effort. But once I started understanding how the human body works–according to modern medical science, not self-help books–things did get more manageable. Now I actually look forward to going to the gym, to savoring my small meal rather than wolfing my plateful.

“Fat activists” have done a valuable service in reminding us that overweight people aren’t any less deserving of respect or courtesy than anyone else. But in another sense, the self-proclaimed “Fat!So?” crowd have done those suffering from weight problems a dangerous disservice. They have millions of us thinking that we are predestined to be obese–or that if someone is fat, it is probably healthier for that particular person to be so! It’s one thing to demand respect–it’s another thing to say things that aren’t just false, but downright destructive.

Overweight people are at significantly increased risk for “hypertension, dyslipidemia, type 2 diabetes, coronary heart disease, stroke, gallbladder disease, osteoarthritis, sleep apnea and respiratory problems, and endometrial, breast, prostate, and colon cancers.” (2) Yes, there are some obese people who never develop those diseases. My grandfather is almost 90 and has smoked since he was 12, but that doesn’t mean that smoking is without risks. Every curve has a few people far to one side or the other, but those isolated cases don’t prove anything other than that some people are very lucky.

If you’re happy being heavy, then I wish you well. But if you’re saying “Fat’s OK with me” while feeling wet around the eyes and a bit flush in the cheeks, please don’t listen to all this “You’re fat and that’s that” stuff. You are what you make yourself to be–you are master of your body. Get into a medically supervised program. If your doctor won’t refer you, then get another doctor. It’s not easy, but you may be surprised how a few simple lifestyle changes can, in turn, change your life.

Alki


(1) Wilson: Williams Textbook of Endocrinology, 9th ed., W. B. Saunders Company, 1998, pp. 1070-1071
(2) “Clinical Guidelines On The Identification, Evaluation, And Treatment Of Overweight And Obesity In Adults - The Evidence Report,” The National Heart, Lung, and Blood Institute (NHLBI), National Institutes of Health,
June 1998