The last remaining acceptable stereotype. . .

Great Debates
161

You’ve hit the nail on the head, JohnnyMustard.

It’s amazingly shortsighted of Scylla to assert that fat people have poor judgment because they do not choose to become thin. Right now, I would love to have more time to go to the gym, and could certainly make the time if that were most important to me, but I have decided to spend my few non-working hours on other things I value more. Why does Scylla feel he is better qualified to make that decision for me or for any other person?

Sure, there are health risks involved with weight. There are also health risks involved with stress, health risks involved with dieting, etc. Life is about deciding which risks you find acceptable given the relative cost to change them. Each of us can climb only so many mountains and who’s to say that my energy is better spent battling weight than improving my mind?

162

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by meara *
**

Bravo! Really…my sentiments exactly!

163

Well, thanks all for giving me time to climb off my cross and take a break from my complex.

When I opened this thread I thought this would be a debate on whether there were any stereotypes more accepted by our society than the one inflicted upon fat people. Little did I realize I would be argueing that these negative characteristics ascribed to fat people are in fact stereotypes and not the actual truths about fat people.

And, although he has tempered his language a bit, Scylla cannot hide – does not even seemed concerned with trying to hide-- his prejudiced view of fat people. He has prejudged them all, as have many others. The real and sad truth is that this stereotype is so prevailent most fat people beleive it.

I’d like to thank Scylla for proving my point over and over again. And if you were hanging by that rope, Scyl, I’d pull you up-- because I am dependable, trustworthy and strong. My weight has nothing to do with that.

164

This is an interesting debate because there are so many unknowns and likely causes. While there are certainly physiological differences between people how does one explain the growing incidence of obesity in the US without some resort to scylia’s explanations?

At the same time scylia clearly underestimates factors beyond an individuals control. For myself it would take enormous effort to get chunky. Through genetic luck of the draw my body regulates my caloric intake maintaining a low fat content with no effort. I love good food but only if I am hungry. When I am not hungry eating can be quite unpleasant to the point of inducing nausea. I can be a complete glutton if I eat fast but after 4 or 5 days of over eating I become food adverse. I suppose back when the corporate look was in I would have been ridiculed as being unable to feed myself properly. In a situation where the food supply was inconsistent the trait could be quite maladaptive.

In any case, from my perspective its difficult to see how obesity could simply be a lifestyle choice.

165

If it appears I’m so off base, let me ask some questions and attmpt to understand the other side.

Again, we are not talking about people with a few extra pounds, we are talking about the seriously obese.

Taking away the small percentage of people that suffer obesity as a direct consequence of a physical, or mental illness, what factors cause an obese person not to be responsible for their own bodies?

Granted for the moment that one is responsible for one’s own body, wouldn’t the way one handles this responsibility be a characteristic of who they are?
Granted that people will form opinions of other people based on interraction, why should this characteristic be ignored?

The problem that I have here is not one of whether fat people should be treated poorly, or as less of a person, or if they should have to put with such behavior in others. They shouldn’t.

The problem that I have is the absolution of responsibility for oneself.

166

Excuse me if I’m missing something, but responsible to whom?

What is this “responsibility” you’ve been talking about over and over again? Do people have an obligation to keep themselves thin to appease the state? Is it some kind of religious thing? Is it a responsibility to the thin people who don’t want to look at cellulite?

I honestly don’t get it. :confused: It’s like saying people have a responsibility to keep their hair cut short or to wear long pants at all times.

167

Scylla,

Though I don’t have any answers for your questions - like meara, I don’t understand the whole “responsibility” issue - I do have a comment to make WRT smoking as a valid comparison.

I used to smoke.

I am also “obese” by the doctor’s chart. I weigh almost 220 lbs at the moment, and stand 5’3" tall.

My relationship with food is much like my relationship used to be with cigarettes. The problem is, where I can choose not to smoke, and not to associate with people who smoke, or ask my smoking friends if they will please not smoke around me (and most of them will respect my requests), I cannot make the same choice WRT food. I have to eat. I have to be around other people who eat. I can make decisions about what I eat (and I do, given that I have allergetic restrictions to many of my food choices), but I cannot not eat. I may occasionally breathe in smoke and think about how much “better” I would feel if I had a cigarette in my hand and nicotine in my system - while knowing that I won’t, because I have chosen not to - but I can’t say the same thing about my blood sugar level and food. If I go too long between meals (as does occasionally happen - I often can’t eat regularly due to my schedule) I get migraines, become dizzy and irritable, and generally need to lay down or eat ASAP. Not the same thing as not getting a cigarette at all (well, except for the irritable part).

This, of course, won’t change your mind. I know I need to take off some of the excess weight because I have a family tendency to diabetes and high blood pressure - the problem is, I can’t cut my calorie intake too much due to the health issues listed above, and exercise alone isn’t enough to pull the weight off. Like Lee, I can not only touch my toes, I can palm the floor. I walk up three flights of stairs to my apartment two or three times a day and am seldom out of breath when I reach the top (carrying and additional 25-30 pounds of groceries does tend to wear me down a bit).

So, to whom do I owe responsibility for “my body”? You? Society? Not bloody likely.

168

As many people here have been trying to say, you cannot tell how a person is handling their “bodily responsibilites” by how much they weigh.

Looking at a person is not interacting with a person.

Well, you’ve already stated that fat people are less trustworthy than skinnier people. You are now trying to claim that fat people are somehow less responsible than skinnier people. You are making analogies between people who keep a dirty house and fat people. It seems that you are making value judgements on character by the very shallow measurement of how a person looks.

Which save you the responsibility of judging people on their actions and not their appearance.

169

Grins on that one! Indeed, if you are dangling from a rope, who do you want on the other end, someone who weighs 150 pounds, or someone who weighs 300 poounds? I’ll take the 300 pounder every time!!!

stoid

170

I would have thought that the term “responsibility to ones own self” would have been self-contained an fairly explanatory as to whom has the responsibility and what it was.

Silly me.
Let’s say someone inherits a million bucks. They have choices and privileges. With those comes a responsibility. The responsibility isn’t to me, nor is it any of my business. They can do what they like. They’re not responsible to me. They are responsible to themselves.

A person’s body is likewise their own responsibility.

I hope somebody takes a stab at actually answering my questions.

171

And as fun as it might be to pretend I said things which I didn’t or to assign motivations, the choice was not a fat person versus a skinny person on the other end of the rope.

The fact that it was read that way, especially within the context of the entire post, says more about the reader than myself.

Read the post again. Person 1 isn’t necessarily overweight, and person 2 isn’t necessarily skinny.

172

Scylla, your questions have been answered over and over again.

Your idea of self-responsibility is your own personal and arbitrary guideline. So, I guess the answer to your question is, since you have made up these guidelines only you can answer this question.

And even using your own “self-worth” guidelines, how can you tell if someone is meeting them just by looking at this person?

173

Biggirl:

So a person is not responsible either to or for themselves?
I had not thought that it was a unique idea of mine.
Needless to say, you can tell very little about someone from a simple observation of their weight.

It is nevertheless an indicator of several possibilities, and an excluder of several others.

Pretending that this isn’t true would be silly.

It would be as foolish as asserting that all fat people are better lovers or that a 300 pound person is automatically better equipped to pull up on a rope, both of which are false fat positive stereotypes that some are trying to put forth.

174

But you SAID you made this judgement based on a person’s weight…that clearly, someone who is severely overweight falls into #1 above. You said that a person’s weight indicated certain things about how they take care of themselves and is data that can’t be dismissed. And my answer to this, FAR from suggesting that people aren’t responsible for their own health, was that you can’t tell which category someone falls into simply by looking at them.

175

I’ve been following this thread rather closely, and I can’t believe how hard some people are trying to twist Scylla’s words around so that they sound worse than they are.

176

Again, I don’t really think this was “aimed” at me, but just to clarify. I personally didn’t intend to say it was better simply to have a heavier person on the other end of that rope. I wasn’t using such a literal translation of the original comment. What I intended to say is that halfway through my total weight loss I was a determined, responsible, and neatly fit into the appropriate category to ‘pull someone out’ of whatever situation they were in. And in my case it WAS true that I was pretty damned strong at that point as well. Thus, you would have made a poor choice not to trust me on the basis of appearance-based assumptions.

-L

177

Sexywriter:

No, not directed at you.

You’ve answered the question as asked. I wanted to say that you could hold my rope anytime, but it doesn’t seem to come out right. :wink:

178

Then perhaps we need a new perspective on what Scylla is trying to say.
What it boils down to, as far as I can see, is that you can make certain assumptions (all negative) about a person by their weight. Where is the twist?

179

That’s because I’m such a hot lover from having been overweight. Oh wait…I guess that’s just part of my natural abilities no matter WHAT my weight. Though, you’ve got to wonder about the abilities of someone with a strong oral fixation.

PLEASE no one flame me for this! I’m just joking!!!

-L

180

I’m honestly trying to understand you. It seems you’re saying that we “owe it to ourselves” (more-or-less) to try to try to keep our weight in the healthiest range.

For me, doing that would mean plenty of regular exercise – about an hour a day. The problem is that right now there are a lot of other things I feel that I “owe to myself” or to other people that are more important uses of my time.

So… while I can understand that you feel you owe it to yourself to stay fit, I DON’T understand how you know what I owe to myself.

In the end, the problem is that we value fitness differently. You currently find it so important that you always make time for it in your day. I currently find other things more important and do not always include it in my day.

I mean, to turn this around, I could say that you OWE it to yourself to go volunteer at a school, or learn the newest technologies, or learn to play piano, or read more Jane Austen and Robert Heinlein, or whatever… Assuming you don’t have a great singing voice, I could judge you for that, since even if I’m naturally talented, you would be passable if only you’d exercise the willpower to practice an hour a day.

The only thing that makes fitness different from most other elective accomplishments is that you’re going to know from looking at me that I chose not to pursue it, whereas I’m not going to know what your priorities are until you open your mouth.

If I were going to compare a million dollar inheritance to a personal privilege, I’d call it a talent, not an accomplishment. It’s something handed to you – like a great singing voice, a gift for writing, a tendency towards fitness, etc.

And yes, in that case, it is a shame to waste that talent. If you are naturally athletic, you should make the best of that. If you have a gift for programming or nurturing or drawing, you should develop it.

If, on the other hand, you’re not naturally disposed to write, who is going to fault you for it? If you can’t give a good speech, will you be mocked in the streets? If you DON’T inherit a million bucks, and you choose to spend your life as a schoolteacher instead of striving to earn your own million, are people going to call you lazy and say you’re not giving it your all?

Life is about choices. Not everyone has to make the same ones you did. If you think they’re making a mistake by not doing so, then well… I guess you’re entitled to your opinion. Shrug.

I don’t know what questions you’ve posed that have been ignored, but please DO respond to the points above. I’d be interested in hearing your views – especially your opinion on how physical fitness differs fundamentally from other abilities like musical or professional skills.