Incrementally and by common usage. Words shift their meaning that way all the time. It’s already underway with ‘anti-semite’.
[QUOTE=Khampelf]
A cite that a feeling of antipathy exists towards certain or most denizens of the Middle East, and that it’s socially acceptable?
Talking to an Iraqi in Payson Arizona about how he’s known in town as the ‘Sand Nigger’.
T-Shirts that say ‘I’d walk a mile to smoke a camel’ with a Bedouin looking silhouette in a crosshair.
Alan Jackson, etc.
This is not shouted down with cries of ‘Hey, some of my best friends are Iraqi.’
I’m afraid my impression remains that the sand niggers have it worse than the queers.
Yes. I said those bad, bad words, but think about what they mean. If you please to.
[/QUOTE]
What the hell has Alan Jackson done? “Where were you when the world stopped turning” has exactly nothing in it that can be taken as anti-middle eastern.
Have you considered getting a clue what you’re talking about? :dubious:
[QUOTE=lissener]
No, you clarified pretty well yourself; your post is my cite.
[/QUOTE]
So you genuinely think that I was trolling by noting the term “antisemitic” was intended to include Arabs too? Yes, I was being silly at the time; but you think I was deliberately pointing that out in order to provoke you? Hey, if sharing information makes me a troll, then pronounce me guilty.
You reckon that Wikipedia entry is also the work of internet trolls? Seriously, if you have any evidence that it’s not true, shine forth thy wisdom. You seem to think that mentioning the original writer’s intent is “communicating unclearly and dishonestly” in this matter. Well, guess what:
Did you see that, lissener? The Austrian Jewish scholar Moritz Steinschneider is a troll too! (I was wrong about that earlier, he’s not a dead German, he’s a dead Austrian! But still!) “Antisemitic” used to mean “prejudiced against Semitic races!” In fact, the claim that it can only refer to Jews is Newspeak! It’s dishonest! Am I communicating clearly enough for you now, O’Brien? And if enough people decide that “antisemitic” should include other Semitic races again, as it did originally, then it will! And then your little world will end! Boogaboogabooga!
You, meanwhile, prefer to keep the word dishonest and unclear, by insulting anyone who suggests otherwise. It’s really that simple. You are the enemy of ignorance-fighting Semitic people everywhere.
(I’ll feel pretty silly about this rant if it turns out that lissener was crabbing about my “African” post instead. Still, it serves him/her right for refusing to communicate clearly. Maybe lissener is an offended Persian who is just yanking my chain in revenge. I could see that happening.)
(Also, will my face ever be red if that Wikipedia passage really was written by Orwellian antisemites. Goddamn infinitely malleable Wikipedia.)
(But still… “anti-semantic bigotry?” Come on; that was funny, I don’t care what oppressed ethnicity you are. Right? Hello? Is this thing on?)
Well, I mean, what a word once meant, and what it means now, are two very different things. Try going around referring to black people as “Negroes” and see how popular you become.
I guess “anti-Semitic” could conceivably come to mean “bigoted against Jews, and against Arabs too,” but I just don’t think it’s in the cards.
[QUOTE=Terrifel]
(But still… “anti-semantic bigotry?” Come on; that was funny, I don’t care what oppressed ethnicity you are. Right? Hello? Is this thing on?)
[/QUOTE]
I thought it was mildly clever; on par with your average Simpsons sight gag or Family Guy cut-away non sequitur. Something tells me you’ve Bedouin these jokes for a while…
Carry on.
[QUOTE=Cisco]
Howard Stern is one of the least racist, least bigoted, least hateful persons in the world. Yes, he is fascinated by odd people but it is very clear that he has compassion for them and in a lot of ways feels like one of them, despite sometimes having fun with them for the sake of humor. He is a very outspoken supporter of gay rights and equality for all races. He graduated from a respected college with a high GPA and surveys throughout the years have consistently shown he has one of the most intelligent audiences in radio.
[/QUOTE]
Did Sandy Allen know what his show is about? I don’t feel sorry for those who do, but she may not have known. If he ambushed her, it’s wrong.
We can still make fun of bigots, right? Or is it bad for me to make fun of the Illinois Nazis?
[QUOTE=Darth Sensitive]
What the hell has Alan Jackson done?
[/QUOTE]
Fostered a jingoistic notion that the USA is automatically superior, and anyone not absolutely for us is against us.
[QUOTE=Darth Sensitive]
Have you considered getting a clue what you’re talking about? :dubious:
[/QUOTE]
Well, I smeared myself with clue musk, and did the clue mating dance, in a field full of horny clues, but… Nope, sorry. I still think Americans pre-judge and generally dislike Arabs, as a whole.
[QUOTE=Argent Towers]
Second of all, I don’t even know how this whole anti-Arab prejudice conversation even came about, but no, I don’t think it is considered more socially acceptable to be anti-Arab than to be anti-homosexual.
[/QUOTE]
I brought it up, and I disagree. The anti-gay position has much opposition. When George Bush II calls for a crusade, and tells Iraqi freedom fighters to ‘bring it on’ The nation cheers and rallies. Loaded words, yes, but I would fight an occupying army, and cheer anyone who does the same.
My point remains that ‘The war on Terror’ is becoming ‘the war on Islam’ largely with public approval. There are no U.S. troops in SF or Grenwich Village, shooting anyone who looks at them crosseyed.
[QUOTE=Argent Towers]
Look at the anti-gay-marriage movement and how much political clout that issue carries. Have you ever seen any mainstream politician advocate any anti-Arab positions?
[/QUOTE]
Yes. Yes I have. I suppose you want a cite.
I’ll have to bring one on.
ETA: I almost invalidated my entire post by mis-spelling ‘village’.
[QUOTE=Khampelf]
I brought it up, and I disagree. The anti-gay position has much opposition. When George Bush II calls for a crusade, and tells Iraqi freedom fighters to ‘bring it on’ The nation cheers and rallies. Loaded words, yes, but I would fight an occupying army, and cheer anyone who does the same.
My point remains that ‘The war on Terror’ is becoming ‘the war on Islam’ largely with public approval. There are no U.S. troops in SF or Grenwich Village, shooting anyone who looks at them crosseyed.
[/QUOTE]
You know, by that logic all wars are inherently racist, by virtue of being waged against foreigners. A legitimate point, perhaps, but are you sure it was the one you wanted to make?
[QUOTE=Khampelf]
Arabs are a semitic people.
Hebrews and Arabs are like cousins. Persians are not a semitic people, which is why I said ‘Persians, too’.
Anti-Arab feeling is anti-semitism, but it’s like a fnord. People see right past it.
I percieve, as well as anti-semitism, a bigotry against Persian people (who are not semites).
[/QUOTE]
If we’re going to really get into this…
Iran has quite a number of ethnic groups, and although Persians are a majority, they represent just slightly more than 50% of the population. There are Azeris*, Kurds, and Arabs, just to name a few. So, bigotry against people from Iran would not be accurately characterized as bigotry against Persians.
*almost 1/4 of the population belongs to this ethnic group
[QUOTE=Silver Tyger Girl]
A lot of people on the net HATE furries. Obviously, we aren’t getting lynched or segregated, but I had my webcomic flamed just for presenting myself as a Thunderian. I have read incredibly hate-filled rants against furries. We’re the butt of a lot jokes, jokes that I’ve even seen here. And the only way we “earn” it is by being very inclusive and open-minded.
[/QUOTE]
Please don’t take this personally Silver Tyger Girl, but furries get all the shit that they get because the most vocal furries are often the sickest fucks on the Internet. The fact that many furries are also into rape porn/fantasies doesn’t help either.
[QUOTE=Khampelf]
Fostered a jingoistic notion that the USA is automatically superior, and anyone not absolutely for us is against us.
Well, I smeared myself with clue musk, and did the clue mating dance, in a field full of horny clues, but… Nope, sorry. I still think Americans pre-judge and generally dislike Arabs, as a whole.
[/QUOTE]
You’ve never listened to Alan Jackson then. Please point me to one of his songs that says anything remotely similar then.
[QUOTE=Sleeps With Butterflies]
Howard Stern who had a jar made in the shape of Rosie O’Donnell’s head and would have guests try to guess how many gumballs were in the jar?
[/QUOTE]
I don’t care who did it, that’s some funny shit right there.
The only guest of Howard’s I ever felt sorry for was Dana Plato, and it wasn’t because of Howard but how incredibly screwed up she was.
[QUOTE=Measure for Measure]
I opine (ignorantly) that furries receive flaming because those who appear submissive are often targets of bullying. Especially on the anonymous or semi-anonymous internet. That may be unfortunate, but it’s substantially different from what I was originally getting act.
[/QUOTE]
er… actually it’s probably because we react. Bullies don’t like being ignored but most furries, IMO, are the type of people who have been bullied all their life because they don’t know how to ignore it. I personally prefer to laugh at bullies, especially internet ones.
The most vocal of any group is always the most extreme - from Klingon-speaking Trekkies to Malcolm X. (No, I’m not going to compare furries to blacks. That road leads to madness. And a great deal of hypocrisy and silliness.)
Furries are no sicker than anyone else - we just accept those people in. You ever visited the /d/ board on 4chan? Or any of the hentai boards on 7chan? They’ll hate on any furry post, but have the sickest possible shit. Furries aren’t any more into any particular fetish than anyone else - nearly everything I’ve seen on furry sites, I’ve seen on non-furry sites. And the majority of furry-fans aren’t into it for the sex - they like Cats, or Bugs Bunny, or Secret of Nimh, or Thundercats, or TMNT, or… Or they just feel a spiritual kinship with a certain animal.
I’ve read a shitload of furry fanfic - and there is certainly no larger of a percentage than there is for non-furry porn. I’ve also never read incest fic, like I’ve seen for anime fans (underage incestual homosexual rape-fic. :eek: Thanks Digimon fandom. Thanks a lot.)
We’ve been stereotyped as sick people, and the media hasn’t helped (like it ever does). Personally, I’d like to slap whoever wrote that CSI episode. But I’ve read plenty of furry sites and posts that are ‘weird’ without sex being involved at all. (Furry lifestylers - I can’t decide if I’m jealous or frightened by them).
I’ve gotten this hate from other Thundercats fans, which blew my mind. Dude, your avatar is a lizard. You’re a furry (well, scaley. Same thing)! Just deal with it!
I stick with my original assertion - furries are open-minded (I’m willing to admit, perhaps too open-minded), often creative people. Just most of them have been harassed most of their lives and are willing to go into rabid fits to defend their community.
I’m not a furvert. I’m not a lifestyler. I’m just someone who likes looking at and reading stuff with anthro animals.
[QUOTE=Silver Tyger Girl]
A lot of people on the net HATE furries. Obviously, we aren’t getting lynched or segregated, but I had my webcomic flamed just for presenting myself as a Thunderian.
[/QUOTE]
I can relate. I can’t tell you how many job interviews I’ve had where once I’ve told the interviewer I’m a 400-year-old vampire, they suddenly don’t want to discuss any of my qualifications.
[QUOTE=Silver Tyger Girl]
Furries are no sicker than anyone else - we just accept those people in. You ever visited the /d/ board on 4chan? Or any of the hentai boards on 7chan? They’ll hate on any furry post, but have the sickest possible shit. Furries aren’t any more into any particular fetish than anyone else - nearly everything I’ve seen on furry sites, I’ve seen on non-furry sites. And the majority of furry-fans aren’t into it for the sex - they like Cats, or Bugs Bunny, or Secret of Nimh, or Thundercats, or TMNT, or… Or they just feel a spiritual kinship with a certain animal.
[/QUOTE]
Um… no. The constant refrain that “it’s not about sex” is another big part of the furry hate. Of course it’s about sex. It’s why it’s called a fetish.
I’ve never visited any of those sites you’ve mentioned, but the underground nature of the furry movement probably doesn’t help any. Furries don’t really exist outside the Internet, there is no mainstream furry group. So the only furries that most people interact with have the anonymousness of the Internet behind them to act extra weird.
[QUOTE=Cisco]
Howard Stern is one of the least racist, least bigoted, least hateful persons in the world. Yes, he is fascinated by odd people but it is very clear that he has compassion for them and in a lot of ways feels like one of them, despite sometimes having fun with them for the sake of humor. He is a very outspoken supporter of gay rights and equality for all races. He graduated from a respected college with a high GPA and surveys throughout the years have consistently shown he has one of the most intelligent audiences in radio.
Regarding the “last” socially acceptable form of bigotry . . . believe me, there are a lot of them left. Here it’s Mexicans, unfortunately. Most people disguise their hate by claiming to confine it to “illegals”, but ask them who is illegal . . . they assume every Mexican is.
[/QUOTE]
I’m not a huge Howard Stern fan, but he does have some interesting things to say. It’s hard to qualify exactly his treatment of “odd” people but I agree that he probably does feel like one of them in his way. In his memoir he mentioned how he used to hang out with Richard Simmons, their Long Island estates being near one another–maybe he still does. Although in describing one such visit he made the expected jokes about Richard’s short shorts and general affect, he wound up by saying that they were actually alike in a lot of ways.
I did enjoy the memoir, as apparently did many others who don’t like the shows. In my case, I can hardly stand commercial radio of any kind to begin with, except for occasionally tuning into an AM station to get local news.
[QUOTE=Sleeps With Butterflies]
You and Caricci can spare me the defense of Howard posts because, as I mentioned in my post, I used to listen to him so apparently I don’t think he’s the devil. I don’t need you to explain to me what “kind of guy” he is. I never said he was racist, sexist, homophobic, or anything else.
[/QUOTE]
I wasn’t responding to your post. My intention was really to respond to the OP. Sorry.