Not being claimed. No “needs to” brought up. But I will stand by my personal sense that someone who is aiming to spend as little time as possible on responsibilities to family and society writ large, who is disinterested in contributing in some way to a unit greater than themselves, gets less respect from me than someone who does.
It came up in another thread discussing the FIRE mindset with my contribution being that if any of my kids shared that was their goal I’d wonder how I had failed as a parent to pass on values I hold dear. Unless of course retirement was used as an opportunity to contribute in ways divorced from worrying about making money.
[quote=“msmith537, post:236, topic:1023440”]
You (and others) seem to be arguing for a society that accepts should accept men who don’t really feel like working or raising kids or really have any sort of purpose or responsibilities beyond what they conveniently set for themselves. [/quote]
Not having a standard sort of job that brings in a paycheck isn’t at all the same thing as having no purpose or responsibilities. I listed quite a few other possibilities, and stopped for lack of time, not for lack of ideas. Others have named additional possibilities.
Is your objection that they’re not accepting the responsibilities set by other people, in particular by standard employers? You don’t want them to decide for themselves what they ought to be doing? Because deciding for themselves what they ought to be doing strikes me as a manly thing to do; or, better, as an adult thing to do.
You seem to be conflating not being in the standard job market with sitting on one’s ass doing nothing. I agree that adults who are capable of doing otherwise shouldn’t spend too much of their time doing that — not that this society often gives children the chance of doing so, either.
Not counting a stay-at-home parent, I don’t know any women who have deliberately dropped out of the workforce or simply refused to enter it in the first place. I’m sure they exist, but all the layabouts I know are men. I think TLC referred to these men as scrubs. Being broke didn’t make a man a scrub, it was a lack of ambition combined with an inflated sense of self-importance.
Our closest neighbor has been on SS disability for at least a couple decades, yet seems perfectly fine health-wise. Her previous husband was also on it. (I suspect disability fraud, which is definitely a thing around these parts.) At any rate, every day is the same for her: eat, watch TV, do a little gardening, eat, watch TV, do a little gardening. I couldn’t imagine being so useless. But to each their own, I guess.
I guess I’d count for some purposes. I closed my stay-at-home business last year because I expected poor economic conditions for it, and Trump killed my intermittent government contracting gig. Technically, I’m administering my dad’s estate, but I am not working very hard on that for various reasons. I’m not in a big rush to find work, because my partner makes enough to support us both, and I have a genetic condition that is making me more disabled over time (in mostly invisible ways, like constant fatigue and high injury risk).
I don’t think I’m a scrub. I do a lot of things (volunteering, making art, organizing people, house and pet sitting, etc.) when I can, and rest when I can’t. I do think I would feel more pressure to get a paycheck to feel valid if I were a man, but I also feel like people are judging me as a woman.
I have decided to mostly not care – the people judging me aren’t going to ever protect me if I destroy my body and become more severely disabled. The intersection of masculine identity and disability seems worth exploring – I do get a sense that men have more internalized ableism (although it’s an issue for people of all genders).
I doubt it would occur to anyone; at best at would accomplish nothing, and might well provoke punishment. If there’s one lesson life teaches men, it’s that nobody cares.
I’m sorry, who are you, again, and why should any human being in the world outside of your immediate family give a crap what you want?
This entire attitude of feeling as though we all have a right to judge other people’s life choices is one reason why this country is falling apart around us.
Yeah, the lack of caring is so intense that people merely publish thousands of articles and books, and create messageboard threads containing hundreds of posts, exploring what we urgently need to do to address the problems faced by men and boys.
I’m not denying that individual men often have problems, and that traditional “masculinity” stereotypes create a lot of toxic expectations that men must hide their problems, or be able to effortlessly fix all their problems by themselves. But that’s not the same thing as “nobody cares”.
I think what you mean is that whenever another of these thousands of books and articles and threads and other discussions on the problems faced by men and boys is produced, you can always find some replies to them consisting of some variations on “Who cares? Let them rot.”
Obviously, though, there continue to be enough other responses, expressing far higher levels of engagement and concern, that publishers keep selling and publishing more of these books, and editors keep publishing and commissioning more of these articles, and individuals keep responding to and analyzing more of these messageboard posts.
In fact, it’s arguably a measure of how much caring about men’s problems is still baked into our society that when some men encounter even a few “who cares?” responses to such problems, they jump straight to the melodramatic conclusion that nobody cares at all. Mm-hmmm.
The only person I know is my beloved Aunt. I’m not sure why she quit, but I seem to recall it having to do with helping her husband manage his severe ADHD. She fell into this role of keeping the house pristine and cooking all the meals and working in the garden and helping him do what he needed to do. She did some art side hustles. She’s had various physical and mental disability issues over the years. And now spends a good deal of time taking care of her elderly mother. Sometimes I’ve wondered if her mental health struggles were related to not working, but I’ve never lost respect for her. She has added tremendous value to many people’s lives, including me and my son.
I was underemployed for several years so I could pursue my writing interest. My husband figured he owed me given how much his career derailed mine. But I really was hoping eventually my organization would offer me a full time gig. And after seven years, they did. By then I had a child and my husband actually was hesitant for me to take the promotion. It turned out to be a good idea.
I suppose I should have been more clear. I don’t view a caregiver, someone with a disability preventing them from working, or a retiree in the same light as someone who just decided they don’t feel like working. I have never known a woman who just decided not to work who wasn’t either disabled, acting as a caregiver, or retired. The same is true for most men, but I do know a handful of men who just don’t work. They have no ambitions and are enabled by family members.
I do. I am married to her. It made sense when our kids were young for her to be a SAHM, but by the time the kids were old enuf to not need warm cookies and milk after school, we had some discussions about her rejoining the work force. They went nowhere. I appreciated the time spent handling all the kids’ appointments and participation at school - it allowed me to focus on my work, but at some point the value of a SAH-parent becomes less as all the rigors of that time-frame start to lessen as the kids get older. I own half of this decision, I am the enabler, but it’s not quite what I signed-up for. Now we are starting to look at retirement and we are beyond the point of her starting to work outside the home again (she was a marketing professional before). But make no mistake, she decided not to work, even when under some gentle pressure to do so. And she is not alone - I know other families where the mom was SAH and then refused to return to work full-time after the kids were old enough, or did but is part-time or very under-employed. Must be nice. Yes, I know a couple of men who have gone this route as well with a supportive spouse.
You can be hot for someone and not harass them, ogle them, or otherwise make them uncomfortable. Plenty of men know this just as much as women.
You think we don’t tell smutty jokes? Really?
I don’t know what it was like for older women but I think generations of women hence have become much more vocally expressive of our sexuality. We just don’t tend to use it to make individual men feel uncomfortable. Possibly because we know how much that sucks.
I don’t want to derail the thread but I think you mean the difference between women in public and women in private. When I started dating my girlfriend a couple of years ago, she was absolutely prim and polite in public, never saying the slightest inappropriate thing. But in the privacy of her apartment, she would elaborate in great detail all kinds of sexual fantasies that made me go “Wow, you’ve, uh, really thought this stuff all out, haven’t you, huh?”
This reminds me of when I was in high school, a devout Christian and sworn virgin until marriage. I had less than saintly friends. My best friend said, “I don’t understand how you can marry someone before you’ve had sex with them. What if they aren’t any good?”
I said, “Then I’ll make him good.”
My nickname for the rest of high school was “Virgin Nympho.”
(But yes, in retrospect, I was incredibly naive in thinking sexual incompatibility would be so easy to fix.)
I was just at a cafe for over an hour near a couple who were having a deep important “get to know you” conversation, and the man talked approximately 90% of the time and by the time I left I still couldn’t figure out if they were having a first date or he was giving her financial advice.
I couldn’t abide today’s dating world. I could not.