Not “toxic masculinity” … not explicitly harm causing behaviors … and not all of the behaviors in that “act like a man” box are necessarily harmful to others or the individual themself. The rigid application of it, the boxing in, is the problem more than the behaviors.
It is really a different concept than defining the harm causing behaviors, the toxicity, as masculinity.
An illustration, my father. The stereotype of masculinity for his era. A boxer in his youth. Stoic. Cried once that I ever saw, when his youngest child was suspected of having meningitis and was getting a spinal tap (me) - a “manly” (of his time and place) time to cry. Family focused and protective. His sexism caused harm - sent an inequitable message to his two male children compared to his three daughters - but I wouldn’t use “toxic masculinity” there when “sexism” is a clearer word.
I don’t assume that anyone using the phrase is misandric, I suspect few consider the harm the phrase causes. But it is of harm.
Fwiw, i have never used the phrase “toxic masculinity” to mean “toxic gender expectations”. I think of it as meaning toxic behaviors that are stereotypically masculine, and the only time i can think of that I’ve used it myself was jokingly, referring to dairy bulls. (Actually, maybe i said they suffered from testosterone poisoning.)
The place I’ve seen it discussed, many years ago, was in a Facebook group started by a trans man, discussing gender roles. Maybe he titled the group sometime like “avoiding toxic masculinity”.
Ah. Can you see the implicit bias in that framing?
If it read “obnoxious behaviors that are stereotypically Jewish” how would you consider the framing?
I was not a huge fan of the article linked to in the OP but they brought up the harms of the phrase at least: the accepted archetype, the stereotype, of masculinity is toxic behaviors and “non-toxic masculinity” is either a null set or being what the writer would state are feminine stereotypes.
I feel like that’s the first step toward being unnecessarily divisive. Mention “toxic gender expectations” and the next question is “which ones apply to men and which ones apply to women?”
I’m fine with “toxic expectations”; one inclusive term for what we all deal with in different ways.
Yes, i can certainly see why a man would be offended by it. And it’s not a phrase I’ve ever used to describe people, quote possibly because i understood that on some level.
I’m basically agreeing with you here, and disagreeing with @Kimstu . I don’t think their use is the common understanding of the term.
There is though a reasonable counterpoint to mine.
There are significant filters in how being a good person of ethics and values play out based on gender in specific cultures at specific times. Already referenced is that even a short grey beard like me is possibly perceived as a threat to a woman in a secluded area so manly includes my respecting that; not a behavior that a woman has to consider. But also if I am strongly assertive I may be viewed as strong or at worst might get tarred as toxic masculinity or privileged, maybe scary; the woman has smaller range before she is called a bitch, hysterical or if white, a Karen. A man is protective of his family; a woman goes Mama Bear …
I’ll stand by my definition but I can’t pretend that the stereotypes, the boxes, the gender expectations, are of no impact on how we each act, including the caricature manifestations of the boxes that a few act out.
That I may define masculinity just as being a mensch and that to me that is not per se gendered (despite the word’s literal translation) just what a good person does while being that gender, but the ways that a man and a woman are good people with ethics and a moral code (mensches) play out and are interpreted are still viewed through gender expectation lenses. (Negative behaviors, what is negative, as well.)
Awww, let’s feel so sowwy for the poor males and their delicate sense of self and accomplishment ::classic sarcastic SDMB rolleyes::
I personally did not feel inclined to try to rescue the construct “masculine” from the sewer in which I found it. I was born male but never had any particular inclination to define my self-worth as having diddly-squat to do with maleness.
It’s attitudes like this that contribute to an atmosphere where a lot of men feel as though they can’t even talk about their problems. You might as well tell them to sack up and be a man.
Thank you for providing such a clear and obvious example that there is a male inequality problem. That some people are incapable of even listening to the abstract idea that a man can experience negative emotions without responding with ridicule.
Completely agree that we as a society have to stop being so repressive and dismissive about men expressing negative emotions such as sadness, fear, depression and insecurity. (Society is already quite tolerant of men expressing more stereotypically “manly” negative emotions such as anger, resentment and hatred, though.)
However, I think it’s likewise important to recognize that while part of widespread male angst these days is due to genuinely unjust and oppressive societal expectations, it’s also partly due to plain old loss of traditional male privilege vis-a-vis women. (And loss of privilege for white men vis-a-vis POC men, and straight men vis-a-vis gay men, etc.)
As the saying goes, “To someone accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.” ISTM that male angst these days is being exacerbated by the lack of a clear dividing line between social/cultural norms that are genuinely oppressive to men, and social/cultural shifts that are merely eroding traditional male-supremacist privilege.
I didn’t mean in any way to dismiss negative and difficult-to-process emotions. I suppose that’s exactly how it came across, though.
My eyerolls are about the pervasive notion that male people have a compelling need to feel superior and important and just can’t survive without it, so female people in particular need to keep patting them on the head and telling them how awesome they are.
Nobody here is making any sweeping generalizations about “the other gender” being “scarier than animals”. (And FFS, what does that even mean? Isn’t pretty much any human adult scarier than some animals, butterflies frinstance? When you wave that broad brush around so intemperately, you end up just creating a meaningless splatter.)
Some women apparently seem to think that in some circumstances, i.e., alone in a distant wilderness, the probability that a random man whom they encounter has predatory intent towards them is likely to be greater than the probability that a large powerful non-anthropophagic native omnivore, i.e., a bear, has predatory intent towards them.
Even if those probability estimates are somewhat skewed by sensationalist media hyping up “stranger danger” threats to women, there is no even halfway rational interpretation of that opinion in which it’s tantamount to thinking that “all men are monsters”.