If what women are actually getting from their PUA “relationship partners” is manipulated, lied to, pressured, deceitfully exploited for sex, and made fun of behind their backs for being gullible dupes of the “alpha-male players”—which are the selling-points that the abovementioned PUA leaders and spokesmen openly advertise for their “strategies”—then ISTM that’s a different kettle of fish, ethically speaking.
An important distinction that you seem to be overlooking here is that everybody who appears on or watches Survivor knows that the situation is an artificially constructed “reality TV” show, and that those are its rules of the game. That’s significantly different from interacting with a stranger in real life who lies and manipulates in order to con you into doing something that you wouldn’t do if you knew what was actually going on.
Yeah, well, personally I don’t have a problem with saying that it is indeed ethically wrong for people to be jerks and assholes who deliberately deceive and disrespect others. But we can agree to disagree about that.
There’s something I need to clear up here. I am hard pressed to think of any time in the last 25 years of marriage where I “insisted” Mrs. Odesio do one thing or another. I asked her not to mow the lawn and explained why it bothered me. I asked once and never brought it up again. On the rare occasion I get home and she’s mowed the lawn, I thank her or compliment her on how nice it looks, and I move on. Does it still bother me? A little. (I suspect in a few years we’re going to have quite a row because I will insist on what vehicle to purchase when I replace my current one. She picked her vehicle and I expect to pick mine.)
I know, sorry, I was not trying to imply that you were personally deeply committed to this particular gender norm of man-mows-lawn!
Your post made it very clear that you thought that particular reaction on your part was amusingly irrational and unjustified, and you were just offering an account of it as an example of how we all get somewhat brainwashed by societal expectations even when we don’t agree with them. I apologize if my condensed summary gave a misleading impression of how you actually felt about the issue.
I think “insisting” that you pick your personal vehicle is perfectly reasonable, especially since she picked her own. If it’s your car, and especially if you’re paying for it, you should buy whatever car you damn well please.
Presuming that it doesn’t cost more than the marriage can readily afford when a cheaper one would do the job, and that if the spouse is expected to sometimes ride in it they can do so reasonably comfortably. I presume that whatever she picked for her car met those criteria.
I would call the deceit ethically wrong as well. There are other things I consider unethical which aren’t as strongly condemned as this is. Perhaps ‘vitriol’ was not the right word.
My wife and I used to watch The Mystery Method on VH1 like 15 years ago or whenever it was on. Most of it seemed to involve teaching a bunch of dorks a framework for approaching and speaking to women.
The reason PUA movement as a whole isn’t just Dale Carnegie for dating is that it fosters and promotes an extremely toxic male attitude. Even Andrew Tate may occasionally spout some pearls of wisdom on confidence. But it’s all made toxic by this undercurrent of anger.
And quite frankly I don’t think it works. It works for the Tate brothers because they are rich, tall, work out all the time, and spend all their time self-promoting their a wealthy lifestyle of Bugattis and fancy homes. Anyone can attract women doing that. But an average guy isn’t going to suddenly attract women by acting like a jerk.
And I guess that’s why what these guys are selling is so appealing. Because the average guy with his average physique and average income working his crappy job is not particularly attractive to most women. He’s presumably attractive to at least a few women. Probably not the sort of women men tend to fantasize over.
Indeed, they are. But remember, part of what the PUA merchants are selling to average guys is the belief that they deserve better than average women.
And that using PUA strategies to con and game women will enable them get the 8’s and 9’s and 10’s that will impress other guys, instead of “settling for” a relationship with an average woman.
I would have been beyond thrilled in my twenties to have a relationship with an average woman. My fear of rejection and overall weirdness scared a lot of them off, I think. That was on me. My wife says that she thinks “weird” is one of the biggest compliments she can give.
Did you not date at all in high school or college? I always found “dating” a bit awkward. But I also started dating when I was about 16. So I got to figure out at least some of that awkwardness at a time when everyone is more or less just as awkward.
One of the problems “late bloomers” have is most mature women don’t want to deal with an adult man who can’t figure out a bra strap if you know what I mean.
In my case, no, I did not. I had my first hookup when I was 29 and my first relationship when I was 30. And yes, I was painfully aware of how difficult it was to not have experience at that time.
After that I came out as bi and was in a covid-era relationship for several years. After that relationship and covid ended I tried putting myself out there in straight spaces, but that didn’t lead to anything. Eventually I found my niche in the LGBTQ+ community and I’m very happy with my current relationship. It took a while to meet the right people.
It’s hard for me to suggest to any individual what specifically to try (especially because a lot of conventional advice is outdated), except to keep an open mind and to keep improving oneself.
I didn’t go on my first date until I was 20. I had a girlfriend for a few months at 22, but we were a very bad match and it only went past one date because I was so desperate. Once we broke up she was dating again after a week or so. I would go on one date in the next year, and no more for about 4 years. That covered my 2 years in grad school, where I was rejected the only time I asked someone out. I wouldn’t be in another relationship until I was about to turn 30. It lasted a few months until she decided she didn’t want to be in a relationship after all. The breakup hit me harder than it should have due to my past lack of success dating. 9 months later I met my wife, who wasn’t scared off by someone being 30 with very little dating experience despite having been in two long term relationships herself. I never had problems with the few bra straps I dealt with. Take out the one ill-advised relationship my senior year of college and the dates I had before thirty could definitely be counted on my fingers. I only got past a first date twice before meeting my wife; both times it did go on for a few months.
Also what works and doesn’t work is specific to the individual. It’s sort of like, “just ask her out” probably works well when you look like (or even better, are) Henry Cavill. Much like “Who want to sex Mutombo?!!” really only works when you are 7’2" basketball legend Dikembe Mutombo.
I don’t think my looks were ever the reason I got rejected, although I thought so from my teens through part of my twenties. My past history made me terrified of being rejected once again, and I’m sure most women could sense something wasn’t right. By my mid twenties I was completely broken.
I’m sure I’ve mentioned it on this thread already, but I was also not able to tell when a woman had interest unless she told me directly. The woman I dated before meeting my wife told me that she’d been dropping hints all over the place, but even in hindsight I couldn’t see it.
I’ve seen a meme circulating graphing with a distribution curve how men vs women are attracted to the opposite sex. For men attracted to women it’s more of a flat bell-curve indicating we might be attracted to like 50 to 80% of women in any particular setting. For women it tends to be heavily skewed such that they tend to be attracted to a smaller percent.
I don’t know if it’s true, but it sort of feels true anecdotally. Even in my wife’s podunk town, I’ll tend to find a fairly high number of women attractive. I don’t know that women look at a similar population of men and say “hey, half of those Applebee’s waiters are pretty cute!”
I think what women find attractive in men tends to be a lot more complex and less quantifiable.
