The Male Inequality Problem

Great Debates
101

Nobody ever explains how most social behavior works, IME; you’re supposed to somehow just know it.

And, apparently, a lot of people do. The rest of us have to study it from the outside, with varying degrees of success. Sometimes this results in our being able to explain something in words that others may be doing without consciously understanding that they’re doing it. Sometimes it just screws us up.

I don’t think I’d have articulated that one that way, though. I might have said, if you let other people see your weaknesses, they’re more likely to be comfortable showing you theirs; and more comfortable around you in general. @Spice_Weasel, is that the sort of thing that you meant?

There’s a story I don’t have a cite for, which I read somewhere long before the internet, but which seems quite plausible to me:

Years ago, there used to be legal restrictions on how much weight women were allowed to lift in factory etc. jobs. The reason was claimed to be to protect women; but in practice it meant that women were barred from most such jobs that paid relatively well.

A group of people in charge of such regulations held a meeting, in a fancy restaurant. They were discussing that particular regulation, and most of them thought it necessary.

Then the one woman at the table looked at the waitress (gendered term deliberate), who had just brought over a tray with their main course; all on layers of good china as appropriate for that sort of restaurant. She had the waitress set the tray down without removing anything, and got them to bring a scale.

The loaded tray came in well over that weight limit. According to that story, that’s how that regulation got changed.

— Also many years ago: I bought a wood splitting maul at a hardware store. The people running the store gave me a hard time about it; they thought women weren’t supposed to be strong enough to use one. I said to them that if I’d been buying that large stockpot on the other shelf, they wouldn’t have thought anything about it; but carrying that stockpot when full was harder than swinging the maul — especially when the stockpot needed to be carried at arm’s length because it was hot.

The men rolled their eyes at me. But a woman who was also at the counter nodded enthusiastically.

102

Don’t forget the ever popular, “Men created the system!” As if my eight year old self had anything to do with it.

103

I guess I’d think both things were true. I’m not particularly bothered by showing vulnerability, but I had a hard time figuring out how much was too much. I didn’t have good social boundaries for a long time. So my recent example of perimenopause, that’s an example that turned out nicely for all concerned. I’ve also lately had some issues with my kid that have come up at work. Women want to hear about that stuff, is all I’m saying. I talk about my kid, my coworkers make supportive noises, then someone else talks about their adult kid who just got in a minor car accident and the photos come out and this is how social bonding works where I work. And you’re not getting ahead unless you make friends.

I like it there, I really respect the women I work with, we are all passionate and committed and effective, so it’s not a complaint, just an observation.

My only real problem with it is if nobody else is leading me I have a really hard time getting to that point with someone, because I’m really by nature a keep to myself kind of person, and the reason I’ve gotten to this really great camaraderie with some women is that I work with them closely, but I can’t seem to make the magic with people I don’t work closely with.

104

I mean, the boys in the system right now didn’t create it, and I’m hard pressed to blame anyone for “the system" until they’re at least 25. I don’t see how we should just leave them to flounder in the system created by other men. And while men did create the system, it’s entirely possible to be a person with little to no influence on the system but still greatly affected by it, and that applies to a lot of men. A lot of men are more victims of the patriarchy than perpetrators of it. And that is because "the system” is really only meant to be dominated by a few at the very very top. For the vast majority of those that buy into it, it’s a total con. And those that don’t buy into it are still crushed by it in one way or another.

I guess I just don’t understand why we should have empathy for everyone but boys and men. I understand how for many women it feels unfair to spend yet more time empathizing with men because that’s the social role a lot of us were pushed into, often at the expense of our own emotional well-being, but I don’t think this is the same kind of ask. At least it doesn’t feel like it to me.

105

I’d just be happy if more women on the internet wouldn’t talk like they’re elves that have been around long enough to remember living under the light of the Two Lamps. (I’ve seen this concept alluded to more with Frieren, but this site probably wouldn’t get that reference.)

106

I don’t get either reference. What are you talking about?

107

Well, the first is Tolkien, the second is a manga and anime starting in 2020. Both have as major characters elves that have lived for literal millennia. What you often see is claims that any problems men and boys might have aren’t actually worth caring about and that in fact they deserve it because “insert decades or centuries old grievance here.” Like they personally lived through the first century or something. It appears to be more of a younger generation phenomenon.

108

Yes. This is the same reason why articles about the college wage premium need to be treated carefully.

109

The Two Trees, not the Lamps, that was before the Elves.

And of course some of us know Frieren.

Now back to the thread please.

How to Reply as a linked Topic

Click Reply, in the upper left corner of the reply window is the reply type button, looks like a curving arrow point to the right.

Choose Reply as linked topic and it starts a new thread. As an example, you can choose GD, IMHO or The Pit for it.

That is actually the best method.

110

I think you’re on to something. Part of the problem is that communities just aren’t as engaged as they used to be. Kids don’t go out and play in packs and see other kids’ dads hanging around. Few do stuff like Boy Scouts anymore, and sports seems to be more competitive and less accessible beyond little-kid fun leagues. So in the absence of those things, what opportunities are there for boys to see men being appropriately manly (or not; seeing that contrast can be valuable)?

I also think that the messages that the media and social media send give boys the wrong idea about what’s valuable and worthwhile. The author of the article hits on it some- few see getting a job, working hard, saving money, and all the stuff of a long, productive, and successful career as something they’re interested in- it’s all get-rich-quick schemes and hustle culture with the intent of getting rich. Not getting a good job and being able to pay bills, and support a family. It’s get rich and drive a Maserati. In fact, the family men tend to be played for laughs, or are seen as a vaguely sad or tragic figure in many shows. Even when I was younger, Al Bundy was a sort of sad-sack because he was a shoe salesman. How often are workaday professions and careers portrayed as honorable, valuable, and desirable? It’s always about trying to get rich, or it’s about the higher-end professions - law, medicine, tech CEOs, and so forth. That guy who works in an office compiling invoices in accounting is seen as hopelessly uncool.

So this is a problem; without the role models of local community men having those jobs and being succesful, boys see the distorted messages from TV and the Internet, and get the idea that success means something that you scheme for, and/or get lucky for.

There’s also a certain idea that success means having a hot girlfriend and a bunch of other unrealistic stuff. But they don’t realize it’s unrealistic- I’m convinced that’s no small part of how you get incels; convince a bunch of guys that to be successful they need to be getting laid by 9s and 10s, and anything less is contemptible, rather than the notion of just having a girlfriend is some degree of success in its own right, and you end up with guys who get extraordinarily and unrealistically resentful toward society because they feel like they’ve been denied their due.

111

US women attempt suicide at a far greater rate then men, but are more likely to use less “masculine” means to do so. Men are much more likely to use firearms and other quick methods, while women often lean towards overdosing, which is less likely to be fatal than a gunshot straight into the brain.

112

Yeah; I’ve also seen that as a reason for gangs being attractive; they provide social association in a largely atomized society.

113

Huh. My mother showed her anger much more than my dad did. My sisters much more than my brother. My wife more than me. List of viral videos of entitled women getting angry that something does go their way. My female partners express anger more frequently than my male partner or I do. They must have all missed the memo.

Another vote for having explicit models of masculinity as being silly. Be a good person while being whatever gender you are.

IMHO the current expectation of kids at age five and six to learn like third graders learn is bad for most kids, and worse for boys as they are not as quick developing the requisite skills. More play based learning at those ages would do the whole group well.

Yes it would be great to have more male teachers in younger grades, but more than pay, too few men are secure enough in their masculinity to take a job that is more commonly done by a woman than a man.

Some interesting stats about perspectives:

One tidbit @Spice_Weasel - your image of being a woman being informed by media is not uncommon. Men OTOH get their view of what being a man means from their parents, both of them.

About two-thirds of men (66%) say their father influenced their views about what it means to be a man a great deal or a fair amount. … snip … 47% of men say their mother has had at least a fair amount of influence on their views about being a man

… About four-in-ten women under 30 say social media and TV or movies have had a great deal or fair amount of influence on their views of what it means to be a woman. Among young men, 18% say social media has influenced their views of what it means to be a man, and 33% say this about TV or movies.

Point there - I didn’t need male teachers to teach me what being a man meant; I had my parents.

114

Not really, but I have no doubt that if I ever did have kids, I’d be 100% all in. So it’s kind of weird; I feel no drive to become a father, but once past that threshold, I’d be super-devoted.

115

I reject the notion that there are no positive, non-toxic male role models in our society.

In my social circle I see plenty moderately* successful, nice, masculine men. Most of them in a stable relationship. The idea that they are somehow feminine instead of masculine because they’re not raging assholes is weird to me.

There are way too many examples of toxic masculinity in our society, but it is far from the norm. The vast majority of men are excellent role models.

We do have this weird habit of letting assholes get away with too much and have this strange motion that they make good (or even adequate) leaders. This IS a problem, but the notion that there are no good male role models is simply false.

*moderately as in not world famous, not on their way to become billionaires. But good at what they do, financially comfortable.

116

That kind of proves my point; those videos exist because women acting angry is transgressive. As is women acting entitled, or expecting things to go their way. That’s women acting like men traditionally do, and thus worthy of a viral video.

If it was expected behavior for women nobody would care.

117

Strong disagree. They are viral because they reinforce a narrative of entitlement. Seriously women expressing anger less than men? Not in the world I have lived in.

Women and men certainly tend to express their anger differently and are perceived differently when they express it. Women risk being labeled “hysterical” and men as a possible physical aggression threat.

118

One of the reddit subs I follow is posts of people losing their shit (and mostly suffering the karmic consequences thereof), and I can say that whatever category of rage we’re talking about (angry at service people, in a hurry on the road, disbelieving that the cop stopped them), you can see both women and men expressing it. Which I’d add can be slightly different from entitlement videos, because those people don’t always express outright rage…sometimes it’s just rudeness and self-unawareness.

119

I think a teen homosexual boy could benefit from any role-model who was empathetic, wise, and open-minded, regardless of whether that person was (the horror!) a “burly manly man”

120

The cause is not lack of positive models of masculinity nor of male spaces.

Increased male suicide rates are concentrated specifically in men without a Bachelor’s degree.

Male suicide trends by class and occupation - American Institute for Boys and Men .

In that group suicide rates have a “53% increase in 23 years. That compares to a roughly 26% rise for college-educated men”

On the women’s side over that time period? A similar 24% increase for college-educated women. But a whopping 65% increase in women without college degrees!

The crisis is for those without college degrees. That manifests more as a “male inequality problem” as a secondary result of the increased and increasing gender education gap with more women becoming more highly educated than men across all social strata.

The prescription is faulty. A focus on improving the education system so it doesn’t leave boys behind (especially a risk in lower SES communities) and thereby increasing college degrees (without crippling debt mind you) would help. A focus on improving the lives and circumstances of all without college degrees would help.

It simply is not a crisis of manhood. It’s a crisis for those in the working class filtered through the fact that women are leaving the working class while more men are staying there.