The masculinity paradox

The BBQ Pit
1

NOTE: I get that gender-roles are complex and non-binary but I wanted to on the cultural binary usage to target problems. People of differing genders often act differently, not because of biology but because of social norms.

Masculinity is often sold as being demonstrated through* strength, courage, independence, and assertiveness* in classical works and in the 1800s dandy’s show that this changes over time. But in general anger or aggression are the only socially acceptable emotions for a man.

While I could use the term “Toxic masculinity” us men often have a hard time reading that as anything but “insulting” due to a paradox.

It is socially unacceptable for men to show any emotion except for aggression and we are sold that being right directly impacts our social value. If a man shows any other emotion or exposes flaws he is devalued and mocked. This happens despite the reality that standing up for the right thing takes much more courage and strength.

As these cultural values do not even allow us men to develop skill sets to deal with stressful situations it results in fear and this fear feedback loop builds until it is released in non-productive ways. We simply have no tools in our toolbox to react in any other way or if we do the fear of being socially devalued forces also causes a fight or flight like response.

The collateral damage from this paradox is huge and these types of cultural changes will take generations to change. If you look objectively at sexism, racism, and xenophobia it is quite clear that these are powered by fear and not information. Thus the paradox of the supposedly “strong” being driven by groups that are actually working off of fear and even terror.

While I am still flawed and ignorant I personally decided to value courage and morality over the alternative response. But I will be honest, the social cost is huge and I wouldn’t expect someone who is more concerned about social status would do so. Especially if they had dependents or children and were concerned about it being career limiting.

This is posted in the pit so that people can speak as freely as possible. Can anyone provide ideas on how we can move forward and stop social injustices and pain while we hope and wait for a cultural shift?

I am not optimistic that framing it in a way that is closer to the truth, surrounding other purported but lesser valued ideals of masculinity like honor and justice will be enough to overcome the fear that has been instilled in men by society. I am concerned that fear will block our ability to reach the critical point required to remove the institutional effects of racism and sexism.

The fear of shame is pretty powerful, and I predict there will be plenty of examples of other men trying to shame me out of this line of thinking.

But I am hopeful that others will produce ideas that may help.

2

Is this true? I’ve seen countless men in movies crying, and they weren’t mocked. I’ve seen many men in real life crying, and they weren’t mocked. I know many men, myself included, that are forthright about their fear of spiders, and will scream aloud if we see one. We are not mocked.

How are you coming up with your theory of “socially unacceptable”? Unacceptable to who(m)?

3

As with all generalizations and stereotypes, they hardly if ever hold for individual cases.

“Suck It Up”
“Don’t Act Like A Girl”
“Be A Man”
“Boys Don’t Cry”

All are used when a boy is hurt or shows other emotions in childhood. The stress this causes is actually documented as one of the reasons men have a shorter life span.

4

Are they? Or are they used when a boy is hurt back in 1950?

5

Speak for yourself, I don’t recognise any of that in myself and I don’t encourage it in my children.

I don’t deny that it is true for some but I can only push against it when I see it, so I do.

6

As I wasn’t around in the 1950’s I can’t comment, but perhaps you were lucky but this norm is well documented.

Here are a selection of cites.

Levant, R., Hirsch, L., Celentano, E., Cozza, T., Hill, S., MacEachern, M., Marty, N., & Schnedeker, J. (1992). The male role: An investigation of contemporary norms. Journal of Mental Health Counseling, 14, 325-337.

Levant, R.F., Richmond, K, Majors, R. G., Inclan, J. E., Rosello, J. M., Rowan, G., & Sellers, A. (2003). A multicultural investigation of masculinity ideology and alexithymia. Psychology of Men and Masculinity, 4, 91-99.

Berger, J.M., Levant, R.F., McMillan, K.K., Kelleher, W., & Sellers, A. (2005). Impact of gender role conflict, traditional masculinity ideology, alexithymia, and age on men’s attitudes toward psychological help seeking. Psychology of Men and Masculinity, 6, 73-78.

Levant, R. F., & Richmond., K. (2007). A review of research on masculinity ideologies using the Male Role Norms Inventory. Journal of Men’s Studies, 15, 130-146.

7

I would totally mock you if you screamed just because you saw a spider.

ETA: Boo!

8

Please provide where I said I do not do the same. Note this response is an ad hominem and actually demonstrates the claim that I was offering.

I am interested in your point but as, by definition, “fragility” leads to denial, minimization and defensiveness and I clearly pointed out my post was not a personal attack this type of response validates my potential conformation bias and does nothing to disprove it.

9

I think change can happen much faster than in generations, depending on the change you are looking for. Decades ago I thought that same sex marriage was vaguely inappropriate or wrong, largely because society seemed to think so. Now that position feels so obviously wrong that it is hard to even recollect what informed it. That is a change obviously within a lifetime.

Right now I am uncomfortable with men being overly emotional in public, unless when dealing with profound and fairly recent loss. (Losing a talent competition doesn’t qualify). The fact that I feel more uncomfortable with men doing so than women doing same I can see as being irrational, but won’t likely change. I taught both my daughter and my sons, however, that being overly emotional in public is inappropriate, and so at least I removed the gender difference in the response for the next generation. Being less repressed I guess will have to wait one more.

10

I sure was when I was a kid. Thankfully as an adult I don’t associate with people who are horrible assholes, so I don’t get mocked anymore for crying in public - but I still feel great embarrassment when it happens.

11

Let me provide an example to try and broaden the topic past public crying by self pitting.

The the observation that “my female friends seem to really like John Cusack films” and the unrequited love and nice guy myth lead me astray.

This lead me to believing the friend zone bullshit and not treating a couple of women with respect.

In one case this resulted in the inevitable creepy behavior and I lost a valued friend where had I actually treated her in respectful manner and had an honest conversation it wouldn’t have been a problem. In another case I hyper-corrected for that error and lost what was potentially a great life partner but did luck out by having a honest dialog and learning why the “nice guy” myth is a farce. In both of those cases, had I felt less ashamed about even talking about feelings the outcome would have been far better. I had great parents and my mother focusing on respect in relationships did help later but the social pressures lead me to error.

To improve on these problems we don’t need to reach the point where public displays are generally acceptable IMHO but we do need to move past the "It is hard for me to say stuff like that.”

That may be a minor example but I want to avoid the risk of this being dismissed as a hyperbolic claim that men have to become “pussified” for this to happen.

We don’t have shoot for a place where men are crying in the streets to reach a point where “pussified” isn’t used as an insult for example. This is about encouraging core values to help unblock other concerns like fairness and equality for everyone.

12

I never claimed otherwise but you certainly did give a very personal view of your concerns across a wide range of issues and painted with a very broad brush that, in my own personal experience, I don’t think is warranted. Hence “speak for yourself”.

no it isn’t and no it doesn’t. I did not attack you personally.

I suggest you turn off your confirmation bias and read my comment for what it actually is. A data point that refutes your concerns and should give you hope that a more enlightened and accepting male worldview exists and is far more prevalent than you think. It is pretty much guaranteed that views such as mine are going to go under the radar but they exist. I’m confident in my own version of masculinity that is pretty much in direct opposition to the version that worries you but of course by its nature it is quiet and non-confrontational for the most part. You won’t necessarily see it unless you look.

13

Wait, people cry in public? Anybody does? I thought that sort of thing was embarrassing for everyone.

14

I provided cites that it is still a problem, and I can provide cites all day long that it impacts everything from discussions here to health outcomes.

http://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/92/8/13-132795/en/

I would appreciate evidence that this claimed change happening on a broad scale, as I have made no personal claim to be anything but ignorant outside of my personal experiences and observations.

The pervasiveness of rape myths and rape invalidation, anti-Muslim and immigration xenophobia and common white male’s fears with groups like BLM demonstrate that these irrational fears are very real at a cultural level.

In my mind the rise of the alt-right which is almost exclusively driven by irrational fear more than demonstrates this is a real issue.

15

It has its roots in sexual selection.

I’ve said before that women, in general, have the most powerful tool to change behavior in their hands. Sexual selection. The “good genes” that the article mentions? Those are only “good” because they’re desired by other women. If those stopped working to get the so called “cads” laid more than the so called “dads” then they’d stop being “good genes” overnight. A single generation could weed out a ton of pussy grabbers and the toxic masculinity. But many women prefer a passive approach and to select from the guys who approach them. Mostly that’ll be the aggressive guys with some of the narcissistic traits. If you want a guy who isn’t like that, then you’ll probably have to approach him.

I’ve told my daughters, don’t date douchebags. It’s bad for you, bad for your kids, bad for humanity. Find the good guys, not the “nice guys”, but the actual good guys. It’ll be more work because they’re not out there all the time preening like peacocks, you may have to work harder to get them to notice you and clearly communicate your interest, but they’re out there and will make a better partner than that muscle-car driving, cocksure, jackanape who wants to keep his relationship with you on the DL.

It’s been a mixed bag so far. My oldest seems to have found a pretty decent guy, my middle daughter is mostly into girls, and my youngest seems to be all about the strutting peacock guys. I’m hoping she grows more out of it before she gets out of her teens and into a real reproductive age.

Enjoy,
Steven

16

Science tells us shifts of this nature can actually occur quite rapidly, assuming the right set of circumstances.

17

Personally I think with the right tools or methods we can make changes, but I also think that barriers to honest communication are leading a lot of people who want to be good enabling these destructive behaviors.

Like any social animal we wouldn’t have made it this long if anti-social behavior was the norm. Most people want to be good members of society.

But I do need to clarify on the usage of “pussified” above.

I am not perfect and honestly don’t think I am smarter or possessing some type of divine unique insight, but just possibly marginally less ignorant. Trying to be non-sexist or a feminist is not perform respect out in public or choosing your words better. This is another example where even the best of intentions is flawed as it ignores the power structure and true equal status challenges.

I can only work off the information I have been fortunate to be told from the others perspective that I will never experience. It seems to be a very common complaint in conversations about sexism and race by those who do know about this that almost universally the concept that men/white or group participated in the oppression is lost.

I am not claiming to have risen above this limitation myself, but that does make me question “I don’t do this myself” explanations as one can not actively participate in a behavior but still enjoy the benefits it provides.

I have been told this is one of the hardest concepts to get across without people becoming defensive, particularly with people who have invested time in attempts to change or do the right thing.

18

OK, to get this back on track,

One potential idea I have is due to evidence that CEOs tend to be the lease self aware in the workplace with senior executives close behind. The evidence seems to show that this is primarily due to a lack of opportunities for honest feedback to due typical corporate structure.

As the primary issues here in mind are around power structures and ignorance and these organizational structures are mirrored in other aspects of society, perhaps finding a feedback mechanism that takes the tenancy of men to resort to a fight or flight time response may be useful.

As I am in a position to help make changes in the upper quintile of my organization perhaps I can help mold a situation where risk mitigation is more valuable than risk avoidance while also trying to increase the perceived value of taking measured risks and reducing the punishment for failure.

This model may allow for a more receptive acceptance of constructive criticism while also reducing the cost of taking risks for the individuals above me in the organization.

Will this change the world…maybe not…but I believe in the body of knowledge here at the SD, and I don’t want to get into a debate about brain structures and fight all of those nurturer vs nature topics.

As I am unlikely to come up with the best ideas I would appreciate it if others could play along here. Even if you have to accept my world as completely imaginary, what steps would you take to move forward.

19

I had a girlfriend who thought that because I was being quiet, I had unexpressed emotions. I reminded her that I was stereotypically Jewish and as such had no unexpressed emotions. If I feel the need to cry, I’ll cry.

Back To The OP

I haven’t found this to be true either. Some members of my father’s generation may have occasionally told us to ‘man up’. But I haven’t observed it among my generation for decades now.

By the way, your cites must be either clickable links, or quoted text in your posts for me to read them. I’m not going to the library to see if they have a book or magazine so I can read your cite. I’m sure the vast majority of other posters feel the same way.

20

Note that the study in question tells us nothing about whether the particular type of “sexual selection” it found is culturally or biologically based:

All those results indicate (bearing in mind that the menstrual-cycle part is merely self-reported and that the identification of ovulation is especially imprecise) is that many women have different types of sexual feelings at different points in their menstrual cycles, and that some of those feelings lead them more strongly to prefer certain traits in men as “sexy”.

But it tells us nothing about why those particular traits are associated with “sexiness”. It might be biological instinct or it might be just cultural conditioning: i.e., when women are feeling sexier they are more strongly attracted to what are conventionally considered “sexy” traits in men. All the rest of that fluff article’s rhetoric about “extracting good genes” and “biology” is just garden-variety evo-psych speculation.

Again, though, it needs to be stressed that there is no actual evidence that pussy grabbing and toxic masculinity are due more to specific genes than to cultural conditioning.

It is indeed very true that women can help discourage behaviors associated with toxic masculinity in men by rejecting potential partners who exhibit such behaviors. But the claim that this strategy would operate via “selected” genetic factors rather than by plain old cultural shifting is a totally unsupported argumentum ab ano.

Well, this part is quite true irrespective of evo-psych-type chinstroking ponders about exactly how male douchebaggery is transmitted from one generation to the next.

But let’s not forget, of course, that the primary responsbility here is still the responsibility of men not to be douchebags in the first place. For the zillionth time, we as a society need to stop taking misbehavior by men for granted as some kind of natural phenomenon that it’s primarily women’s job to fix, by selecting or training men more carefully.