Men Choosing to Disengage from Emotional Involvement with Women (... and Bears)

[Moonrise]

Opening a new thread here in order not to hijack this one.

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

But the biggest disagreement I have is with that final paragraph that I quoted. Who are these guys who are deciding that disengaging totally from emotional involvement is the only smart thing to do? I don’t want to be insulting*, but that comes across as a profoundly cowardly reaction that misses the point entirely. The courageous, honest, and compassionate thing to do is to pay attention to what people are saying, to not be over-defensive, and to think about what real concerns there are and how one can be part of addressing those concerns.

I am one of them. And if that makes me a coward, fine. I’d much rather be a coward than an abuser, even an involuntary one.

I’m curious, though. Would you say to someone that keeps on losing at the casino that he’s a coward for deciding not to gamble anymore ? Especially when they realize that the casino staff is terrified of their mere presence ?

The reason I have decided to disengage from any emotional involvement with women is not because they are all poisonous to men as @thorny_locust wrote, although some absolutely are. It is because there’s so much fear and bigotery on both sides that it is a losing game. A game in which you can play by the rules for decades and still have the rug pulled from under you time and time again because people will strike preemptively when they, justifiably or not, feel insecure.

I have seen the fearful, furtive glances when I come across them in the streets. I have seen them quickly change places when I sit down less than 5 meters away from them. I know they’re afraid. And I’ve felt hurt every time this has happened. Since carefully minding my words, my movements and my gaze haven’t proved sufficient, avoidance is the only way to be sure that I’m not a nuisance to them. And that I don’t get metaphorically hit again ‘just in case’.

That doesn’t mean I will turn a blind eye to the very legitimate concerns that women have. Or that I will not engage with them at all.

As a matter of fact, I was talking with a colleague about this meme 3 days ago. She’s very opinionated when it comes to men, and her go-to answer for any issue is ‘toxic masculinity’. Yet, her arguments are solid and always worth listening to. I was pointing out the ways in which some men are genuinely trying to do better. She listened, nodded and said ‘I know, but that is not enough anymore’, gently banging her fist on her desk. So, I told her that this kind of discourse was the very reason I had decided to disengage emotionally. She looked genuinely pained, while I was puzzled how she could not see that it was a perfectly predictable consequence of the gridlock. What else can you do when listening, learning and trying to do better all your life is deemed ‘not enough’ ?

I’m turning 50 at the end of the year. I’ve been lucky in having more women in my life than most men. One whom I was married to for over 15 years, four who shared my life for several years each, and many others I was more briefly involved with. I have two wonderful daughters. I’ve learnt a lot for them all. They gave me both the most extatic and the most humiliating experiences of my life. I’m completely at peace with the idea of being alone. I’ve had a full romantic life. Not the one that I had hoped for, but full nonetheless.

[Roderick_Femm]

I’m a gay man, so there’s a sense that I don’t have a dog in this fight. But because I am apparently not always obviously gay in appearance, I too have inadvertently appeared as a potentially threatening presence (for example, one time I was walking the last mile home around 9:00 at night, and the street was deserted except for me and a woman a little way in front of me; I’m sure she could hear me walking behind her. I tried slowing down so it didn’t sound like I was going to overtake her, but that didn’t seem to make things better (in my head). So I crossed the street, and speeded up to pass where she was.) I didn’t feel hurt that she might feel this way, I was sympathetic.

So I don’t really understand why you should be hurt by the reactions of strangers who can’t tell by looking at you that you are harmless. I think that is my main concern with your story. I’m sorry that women you know have hurt you (but I doubt that everything was completely one-sided either). I don’t see what that has to do with the reactions of women who are strangers, and why you should take it personally. Is it that you don’t believe that many women have had traumatic encounters with strange men?

[iiandyiiii]

If this is what you personally want to do with your life, then fine, who cares. Is this all you’re saying, or are you saying that this is the only smart way for men to behave? If it’s the latter, then that’s incredibly dumb.

[Der_Trihs]

Why is it “incredibly dumb”? That’s rather strong language against a pretty defensible position given how poisoned relations between the genders are.

Heck, it demonstrates how poisoned relations are that a desire to avoid people who fear and hate you gets labeled “incredibly dumb”, especially in the context of a discussion splitting off a thread about how reasonable it is for women to fear and avoid men. Why should someone want to hang out with people who look at them like that?

Heck, this is pretty classic toxic masculinity, the idea that a man should just keep on doing something they know makes them unhappy to avoid showing weakness.

[BigT]

I have little experience in this area, unfortunately. Because of my own life circumstances, I’ve not pursued anything romantic in a long time. But I do have thoughts here.

The first is that this woman saying that what men are currently doing is “not enough” isn’t sufficient on its own to lead to the conclusion “I might as well not try.” You are assuming an additional premise. You appear to be assuming “Nothing men can ever do will ever be enough.” But it seems highly unlikely she believes this. If she did, she wouldn’t try. There would be no point in trying to convince men to be better if they could never be good enough.

I also suspect confirmation bias here. You are concerned about how you come off to women, and so you’re noticing primarily the signs that confirm that concern. I very much suspect there are plenty of women who have no negative reaction to you that you just don’t notice—heck, they may not even notice you.

I would also point out that you’re not actually interacting with any of these women. First off, it’s possible that any reaction you see has nothing to do with you. But, even if it does, it’s still not about you. It’s not about anything you are doing or not doing. It’s because of things other men have done.

You come across to me like someone who is bearing way too much of the weight of all men on your own shoulders. All you can do as a man is be the best man you can be. You can try to convince others, but you can’t control them. For example, you can’t change the fact that 1 in 20 or so men engage in sexual harassment or assault. You can just be one of the 19 who doesn’t.

That’s not to say you are not justified in thinking it’s too much work to try and date right now (or even, for the rest of your life.) Or even that you’re already doing as much as you can to help women. Those are reasonable.

But finding out that doing all the right things doesn’t necessarily fix the problem isn’t one of them. This is a societal problem, not an individual one. It’s about men in general—including that 5%—and not you specifically.

And, anyways, if you keep on interacting with women with people, you may wind up stumbling into a romantic relationship anyways. It sounds like you already did before. But it’s also good to accept that it may not happen, either, and not let yourself get bitter.

[Der_Trihs]

@BigT

The first is that this woman saying that what men are currently doing is “not enough” isn’t sufficient on its own to lead to the conclusion “I might as well not try.”

But it is? They are not “men” and have no power over what other men do, so if the problem is what “men” are doing then there’s nothing that they as an individual man can do about it. They could become a paragon and it wouldn’t change anything.

[iiandyiiii]

@Der_Trihs

Why is it “incredibly dumb”? That’s rather strong language against a pretty defensible position given how poisoned relations between the genders are.

Heck, it demonstrates how poisoned relations are that a desire to avoid people who fear and hate you gets labeled “incredibly dumb”, especially in the context of a discussion splitting off a thread about how reasonable it is for women to fear and avoid men. Why should someone want to hang out with people who look at them like that?

Heck, this is pretty classic toxic masculinity, the idea that a man should just keep on doing something they know makes them unhappy to avoid showing weakness.

Okay, you’ve convinced me, you should definitely stop engaging with women.

[BigT]

@Der_Trihs

Why is it “incredibly dumb”? That’s rather strong language against a pretty defensible position given how poisoned relations between the genders are. ⁢

Because the conclusion is not in fact defensible. What men are expected to do is not so ridiculously hard that it’s effectively impossible and you might as well give up. If it were, there wouldn’t be so many women and men who are happily in a relationship.

You can decide that dating is too much work for you personally, but that’s not the same thing. Because then you realize the issue is you, and are not blaming women for daring to want to be treated equally.

@Der_Trihs

@BigT

The first is that this woman saying that what men are currently doing is “not enough” isn’t sufficient on its own to lead to the conclusion “I might as well not try.”

But it is? They are not “men” and have no power over what other men do, so if the problem is what “men” are doing then there’s nothing that they as an individual man can do about it. They could become a paragon and it wouldn’t change anything. ⁢

You’re mixing up your antecedents. The discussion is about men who give up on dating or even becoming friends (i.e. emotional involvement) with women. The fact that you can’t make sexism go away doesn’t mean you can’t be friends with a woman.

The issue is in getting offended because a woman feels uncomfortable because of how other men have acted. That’s what you can’t do anything about. Because it’s not about you.

[Der_Trihs]

I don’t. Endless lectures about how awful men are did an excellent job of destroying any romantic impulses I ever had. As well as watching how relationships crashing and burning appears to be the norm rather than the exception.

Also, that too is classic toxic masculinity, trying to shame a man by claiming he’s unworthy of women.

[iiandyiiii]

Good for you! Sounds like it was the best thing for everyone.

[Der_Trihs]

@BigT

The issue is in getting offended because a woman feels uncomfortable because of how other men have acted. That’s what you can’t do anything about. Because it’s not about you.

If it’s targeted at me then it’s about me. Pretty much by definition.

[Dung_Beetle]

@Moonrise

‘I know, but that is not enough anymore’

Who is this woman that speaks for us all?

[epbrown]

@Dung_Beetle

Who is this woman that speaks for us all?

Helen Reddy.

[JackieLikesVariety]

@Moonrise

her go-to answer for any issue is ‘toxic masculinity’

maybe we could blame toxic patriarchy and get a clue that it’s harmful to everybody.

But women who hurt your feelings by acting afraid of you might just possibly have it worse than you do.

ETA: I see that @Roderick_Femm already said the same thing but better. carry on!

[RitterSport]

She roars, doesn’t speak.

I’m frankly surprised at some of the seemingly paranoid reactions here. Most or all of my interactions with women are totally benign, and obviously I’m emotionally involved with many (sisters, mother, wife, children, other relatives, good friends). I would never consider shutting out more than 50% of the population because some men are terrible to women.

[epbrown]

@Der_Trihs

If it’s targeted at me then it’s about me. Pretty much by definition.

I dunno. It seems to me the coworker was talking TO you, not ABOUT you.

[iiandyiiii]

While it’s probably best overall for men who really feel this way to stay away from women, I really pity them and hope they shake themselves out of that attitude. By far the most joy and happiness and satisfaction I’ve ever felt in my life comes from being a husband and father, both of which required a strong and healthy emotional engagement with a woman (my wife of almost 15 years). Straight men who shut themselves out from that are, IMO, missing out on the best feelings in the world (and I’m not talking about sex).

[Dung_Beetle]

@epbrown

Helen Reddy.

She’s still an embryo!

[Babale]

@Moonrise

It is because there’s so much fear and bigotery on both sides that it is a losing game. A game in which you can play by the rules for decades and still have the rug pulled from under you time and time again because people will strike preemptively when they, justifiably or not, feel insecure.

As a man, I strongly disagree; that hasn’t been my experience, at all.

In my experience, most people who develop a reputation with women for being creepy get it by acting creepy.

[Babale]

@RitterSport

I’m frankly surprised at some of the seemingly paranoid reactions here. Most or all of my interactions with women are totally benign, and obviously I’m emotionally involved with many (sisters, mother, wife, children, other relatives, good friends). I would never consider shutting out more than 50% of the population because some men are terrible to women.

Yeah, exactly. I go through life interacting with tons of women - coworkers, family members, people I run into, etc. When I was single, some of those interactions were romantic, and some were rejected.

At no point have I ever felt the sort of hostility that the OP and others describe. To me, they are talking about an alien world, not the one we all live in; and I just don’t understand it.