The masculinity paradox

The BBQ Pit
101

I took another look in the link in #14 and #22 to remind myself and the former documents how women prefer aggressive males during ovulation. That’s biology, not culture. Toxic masculinity is not mentioned. Nor is it mentioned in the NY Times article given in #22. That latter article is profoundly sexist in itself in that it comments on comments made by boys about girls but makes no mention of comments made by girls about boys.

Perhaps it is you who ought to pay attention?

Toxic masculinity seems to me to be just a nebulous catch-all code-phrase for ‘male behaviour I do not like.’

102

More accurately, “masculine behaviors, enforced and sanctioned by cultural pressures, that (I and others feel) result in suboptimal sociocultural outcomes.”

But I’m not sure how to explain briefly how I feel society enforces gender roles. It seems pretty clear to me, but I’m a second wave feminist who has studied sex, gender, pop culture, and politics for over 30 years. I certainly don’t mind if you choose to dismiss me because of this. I frankly struggle to not see gendered messaging in society. It’s astoundingly common.

103

I think it’s more a case of the reverse: the woman testing men. Films and tales are full of women making men prove their worth through trials over an extended time.

104

I’m not dismissing you. You just haven’t explained it. Just because it’s obvious to you doesn’t mean it’s obvious to someone else. Fight my ignorance.

105

Consider *toxic masculinity *as a sub-type of hegemonic masculinity which results in negative outcomes for the individual or society as a whole. Examples would be misogyny, homophobia, or simply social pressures to not visit a doctor to get an early diagnosis.

I have the feeling you view it as a value judgement when it is not, toxic is simply used as it is typically poisonous to the optimal ideal. Suppressing emotions due to social pressure resulting in social isolation and an increase risk of suicide is another example.

The fact that men often react to descriptive terms as if they are personal attacks is another concrete example of a “toxic” social result as that defensiveness often blocks further communication and clarification on the subject.

106

Sorry, but I don’t see those as examples. Sure they are negative behaviours but homophobia is historically not limited to men. And misogyny is historically rather new. Remember that until very recently (the past 200 years or so), most women were constrained by childbearing and rearing - having a dozen or more children, most of whom did not survive, was not uncommon. That’s sexist, sure, but not misogynist. And history shows that there was nothing actually preventing a woman determined to succeed.

As I understand it, in America the pressure is usually financial, not social.

You’ve lost me here.

Right. But who determines what is the optimal ideal?

I really don’t see that. But then I’m more of a Stoic through a classical education. And suppressing emotions affects both men and women: a childhood friend of mine killed herself. Hardly toxic masculinity there.

Speaking of the Dope, they usually are personal attacks.

107

Again, I’m likely incapable of that.

Society creates and enforces norms. Yes?

108

Pot, meet kettle. Note your Tu quoque which is an ad hominem above. Blame shifting does nothing to have a good faith discussion on a topic.

When you are claiming misogyny is historically rather new can you provide a cite?

In the modern western world women were typically property until the very recent past and I can provide cites from the Abrahamic religions texts which will demonstrate this.

No one but yourself can take offence or respond to personal attacks, simply quit participating in them. Nothing in this current part of the thread is a personal attack and resorting to diversionary ad hominem tactics like your above post does nothing to address the topic.

This culture is not exclusively pushed by cis males, but it does target and impact that group and other groups in kind.

109

Are you referring to the study cited by Mtgman in post #15? (Speaking of paying attention…)

If so, then no, it’s not biology. Or rather, as I explained in post #20, it’s impossible to tell from such studies whether the stereotyping of certain male traits as “sexy” is due to biology or culture or a mixture of both.

The linked article in post #14 has extensive discussion of ways in which masculinity stereotypes negatively impact men’s health outcomes worldwide, which is precisely the sort of thing we’re talking about here. Did you try actually reading the article instead of just browser-searching for the phrase “toxic masculinity” within it?

Likewise, the article linked in post #22 describes how “boys’ lives are still constricted by traditional gender norms”, which, again, is the focus of this discussion.

:confused: You mean the article linked in post #22? I don’t understand how you came to that conclusion, given that the article actually quotes various comments made by girls about boys.

In what way is that a rebuttal of the claim that “we as a society reinforce the notion that boys are supposed to ‘get girls’ romantically/sexually for their own gratification and social validation, and prescribe some particular behavior(s) as a strategy for ‘getting girls’, rather than encouraging boys to view girls as individual human beings in their own right”?

Are you considering the phenomena of “tropes about women making men prove their worth” and “the notion that boys are supposed to ‘get girls’” to be mutually exclusive, and if so, why?

110

I don’t have an answer, but I did want to say how very true this is. Most men - at least in my experience - are raised with the idea that women respond to certain behavior and I think it’s something women themselves reinforce (perhaps without even meaning to). The dominant narrative is that sex is something to be “earned” and is a reward for succeeding at the desired behavior.

When I was a teenager (even into my early 20’s) I was utterly perplexed by trying to figure out what this was. Sex was very clearly a reward for whatever man was the strongest / fastest / best at X, but I absolutely could not figure out what ‘X’ was supposed to be. Society as a whole has a long way to go to get rid of this notion that sex and love are rewards for men who ‘earn’ or ‘prove’ their worth, and replace it with the narrative that love is about two equals who understand each other.

111

Heh. Typo alert! :slight_smile:

I disagree. That article notes many factors, for example employment:

You have heard of the phrase, “being worked to death”, haven’t you?

Then there’s education:

or are all men stupid?

and other factors.

That article notes only one example of toxic masculinity: excessive drinking in Russia.

And the gender gap is millennia old. For instance, according to an article by Katharine Parr in Dragon magazine, in Celtic societies in pre-Roman times, the life expectancy of a man was 25 years less than that of a woman.

I’ve already pointed out that men are allowed to show more than aggression or silence upthread.

But no quotes of boys complaining of sexist remarks by girls about boys.

There’s consent in the former and not in the latter.

112

Some but not others. Basic biology creates many and evolution enforces it. For instance, only women can become pregnant and are very vulnerable at that time. Young children are also very vulnerable. So society bases itself around those - amongst other - factors and we get the basic primitive society where men do the dangerous things - like hunting - and women do the safe things - like gathering. And we see that to the present day where people who do not wear seatbelts (or smoke or…) are more likely to die and not reproduce. Evolution and Darwin in action.

113

But I don’t modify my behavior to earn the approval of my peers. I associate with people who already approve of my behavior, so I don’t know why I would say I do, in public.

114

Not to mention the countless times in media that women withhold sex as a punishment for the man not conforming to what the woman wants.

115

It’s interesting that when I ask you to imagine what it’d feel like to say that, you instead explain why you’d never say that. I doubt you’ll ever go so far as to imagine it, and I have my suspicions about why, but those suspicions explain also why you wouldn’t listen to my suspicions, so there you go :).

116

I’m interested in hearing your suspicions. I’ll let you know if you are correct or not. I don’t lie, nor am I ashamed or feel week about why I do anything I do.

If you want my answer to how I would feel doing something that I would never do, then the answer is, if I had to do that, then I would just own it. I’d wear signs, silly clothes, whatever. “I CARE ABOUT WHAT MY PEERS THINK ABOUT ME!” is what I’d scream.

The problem with that scenario is that I would be lying. And I try very hard not to do that. So, that’s why I’m interested in your suspicions on why I wouldn’t think about lying in public.

117

Yeah, that’s not it.

Masculine stereotypes require guys to be confident in themselves, brave enough to withstand all outside forces. Toxic masculinity requires unshakeable confidence, a lack of introspection, a need to brag about their bravery and confidence to anyone who will listen, an unwillingness to entertain even the shadow of self-doubt.

If someone were deeply affected by toxic masculine stereotypes, they’d behave in exactly the manner you’re behaving. It’s a self-obscuring disease.

There is also the possibility that you really are the maverick you claim, and that you’ve reached this point just naturally, without any effect from the surrounding culture that would shape you to be exactly the person you claim to be. Can’t deny that possibility.

I ain’t convinced.

118

There’s also an inherent contradiction in this component of toxic masculinity. Namely, a requirement for confidence that is independent of external forces yet at the same time devoid of any real internal introspection. It simply cannot be. So the attempts at achieving it only serve to harm the man.

119

There isn’t a need to brag for it to be toxic.
With risking inflaming a typical “Men’s Rights” misdirection let me reference this topic here.

https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=863678

I was taught that you don’t hit girls which is not toxic but then I got into a relationship with a woman in the early 2000’s which was great until we dated for about a year and moved in with each other.

The first day we moved in she came home from work and went ballistic because I was installing a water filter on the kitchen tap, which she didn’t like. I remained calm and assumed it was just stress from the move. These events kept happening, escalating over time and she started to punch me if I put the steak knives pointy end down in the dishwasher…

I was concerned about it becoming a cycle and actually reached out to a women friend who worked professionally with domestic violence and was told “What did you do to make her mad” and “You are 200lbs and she is only 100lbs that can’t be true”

I didn’t talk to my family or other friends about it for a long time and the one time when I did reach out to a friend the response was laughter. I dealt with actual bruises for a couple of years because I was too embarrassed to admit it to anyone else.

Her family was from Alaska and one Christmas we were flying up to meet her parents for the first time and right before we got off the plane she said “If my dad treats my mom poorly just don’t say anything” and that finally made it click that I had to get out.

As she couldn’t afford the house we were renting I had to try and convince her to move out as she refused to directly address the behavior. I was cut, hit with a baseball bat and while I was large enough to restrain her she would just sucker punch me hours or even days later if I stopped her or left for some time.

She had manipulated my friendships to isolate me from people who wouldn’t just laugh off her attacks which were becoming more public, and she refused to move out. Lucky for me she misjudged one of her friends who had also been abused by a former husband and that woman talked her into leaving after reaching out to me privately.

I would never have used violence against her and I would never “hit girls” but the fact that I was called a wimp or not believed when I tried to reach out is an example of toxic masculinity

Things are getting better and as I mentioned in the linked thread you can at least call a help line now. But the costs even in less extreme examples are real and often relate to stress and other negative effects.

Studies with elderly trans men and non-trans men in the US show that this is not merely a biological trait.

There are other studies that “fears of being seen to be weak contributed to delays in seeking medical care and led to reluctance to disclose symptoms to others.”

That study also shows that Asian men with differing social norms fared better.

While I will never make the same mistake I made 15+ years ago this is not just a problem with sexual assault and violence but a far broader set of negative results.

Men being more likely to smoke and drink or less likely to see a doctor or seek out help for mental health is also related to this problem. Only some of this can be explained by testosterone and that portion is not the majority.

I am not perfect and have a lot to learn, but the shame I feel 15 years later for being the victim of an abusive relationship is not because of my choices then, but because I think that a significant portion of you will be dismissive or mocking in you head.

I’m one of those guys who stops a bar fight without violence without a problem, but for some crazy reason, despite all reason, I feel like a wimp for refusing to defend myself from a 100# woman with force and her intentionally taking advantage of that fact. I know that was the game but still feel the shock of a “professional” coming back with “well what did you do to make her mad”

120

Thank you, rat.