OK, so I live this town where for the past 20 years or more in a popular intersection, there has been 1) a Nativity Scene, 2) a Menorah, 3) a Christmas Tree, and 4) Santa’s House, one on each of the 4 corners. This year, for the first time EVER, there is NO Nativity Scene or Menorah because some people protested and now the city took it away.
But hey, there is still the damn tree and Santa House! What is going on in our world!!! There would be no holiday on December 25th if it weren’t for the birth of Christ! That’s what CHRISTMAS is. Why are people trying to deny that fact? Why is it that CHRIST is so offensive to people? What did he do that was so horrible? I’m just shocked and completely saddened that our future generation is being taught that Christmas is like the commerical Ross has running right now, “Gift Time”. It is NOT!! It’s the celebration of a life, a life that means more to some people than thier own, and I can’t believe that people are getting away with covering that up and making it all about Santa and gifts and spend, spend, spend because that’s what makes everybody happy!! Is this really happening?? answer…yes it is
. . .which most likely wasn’t even in December.
No, I’m afraid that winter holy days and celebrations predate your religion. The solstice was known and celebrated long before Christ. Winter holidays are found in every culture.
I agree that Santa and the culture of greed surrounding Christmas are ridiculous. But in my mind, so is a town government proselytizing.
“Why is it that CHRIST is so offensive to people? What did he do that was so horrible?”
—It’s not Christ I object to so greatly, but I do have a real problem with his biographers . . .
Christians may have made celebrating Christmas popular, but that doesn’t mean that non-Christians can’t have Christmas as a special day that has nothing to do with Christ.
Ok, it’s a shame that your town has taken down the religious symbols from their Christmas corner, but I object to the notion that non-Christians can’t take the public holiday and use it to celebrate in their own way. For me, Christmas isn’t about Christ, despite his name appearing in the title. Christmas is about family and togetherness, and it’s a very special day. Commercialism? I don’t care about that. It’s not about the presents for us, it’s about being together. I can’t understand people complaining about the commercialism - you don’t have to buy stuff! Not if you’re spending Christmas with a group of likeminded people who are just happy to have a chance to be with you. That’s Christmas!
I’m grateful to Christians for starting the tradition, but that doesn’t mean I have to celebrate the way they do or the things they do.
Oh Eve, yule have to do better than that.
Something similar is going on locally that’s causing a big fuss.
You don’t mention if the “Christmas Corner” project in your town is run by the local government. The local case involves a city sponsored nativity. Because of the separation of church and state, and the increased attention people are paying to OTHER religions and their celebrations, the city has decided it’s not appropriate to sponsor a depiction of baby Jesus. I agree with them.
For one thing, there is a place for the nativity: In a church. There is a place for menorrahs as well. The city center is not the place for religious displays of any kind.
Further, the various Christmas celebrations such as putting up trees and giving gifts are really only linked to Christ because they had to use them to lure pagans into the church. Christmas, in spite of it’s being pre-empted to celebrate the birth of Christ, was NOT originally a Christian holiday, but rather a celebration of the winter solstice.
L
Even I, as a Fundie, can understand that it’s not fair to all the folks who aren’t Christians to have Nativity scenes put up in public, taxpayer-funded places like the courthouse lawn.
America is “about” freedom of choice in religion, and about not having a state-supported religion, and when there are symbols of one particular religion on display in a state-supported venue, it sure looks like favoritism.
Folks aren’t against “Christmas” as such, Enchantress, they’re just against having the trappings of a certain religion foisted upon them in a place where they have a right to expected religious neutrality.
I respect all your opinions and thank you for them as I completely agree with freedom and all. The gripe I have I guess is that they were there for so many years, and all of a sudden they’re gone. For me it feels like someone saying it WAS okay to display and share the religious part of Christmas for 20 or so years, but nay no more!!
This is one atheist who doesn’t really mind nativity scenes in public areas, as long as other groups may do something similar, even though it does not withstand Constitutional scrutiny. The reason is that I have always viewed the Christmas celebration as a hopeful expression, such that I did not believe that people who erected nativity scenes were trying to foist their belief off on me, but were rather expressing their desire for good will. This differs dramatically from, say, erecting the Ten Commandments in a public area, since that symbol is much more coercive. When my Christian friends ask me if I’m offended if they say they’ll pray for me, I tell them no, it’s rather valuable to me to know that someone else cares enough to be concerned. Also, a temporary Christmas scene in a public area does not make me feel as if I were being excluded from representative government because of my beliefs, whereas a permanent posting of the Ten Commandments does.
Enchantress wrote:
Yeah, there does seem to be a sea-change of sorts going on in the U.S… I wouldn’t say the government is becoming anti-Christian, as some alarmists claim, but I would say that the government is decidedly less pro-Christian than it used to be.
I wonder how much this is related to the slow-but-steady increase in Federalism in this country.
Well, cultures change. There are plenty of other things that were okay 20 years ago which are nowadays “not okay”, things like various ethnic jokes, or male bosses grabbing female employees’ butts, or people smoking in banks and malls, stuff like that. I could name dozens.
And one of the things that is not okay anymore is the assumption that America is a “Christian nation”.
DDG, I STILL cannot see you as a fundy…
Well, being that CHRISTmas is about the birth of Jesus Christ…
Enchantress said:
This is a very good question, and is one I tend to raise every year when CHRISTIANS claim that Christmas isn’t really a religiious holiday and therefore its celebration by government shouldn’t bother people who support separation of church and state. Somehow, it’s usually the Christians who make this claim, and it continually boggles my mind.
Others have said it, but I’ll do the same. It’s not Christ that’s offensive, it’s the government sponsorship of Christ that is.
David B - what do you mean when you say “Christians claim that Christmas isn’t a religious holiday”? I’m a Christian and I say Christmas IS a religious Holiday - to me anyway. But come to mention it the whole US celebrates it as a day off work, along with Easter (which is also quite religious :))). But why don’t we get Kwanzaa or Chanukkah off work? America started out as a “christian nation”, and though so many people are not christian, America still seems to stand by it. On our currency it says “In God We Trust”. I can say that I do, but does America really?
Well, according to the media and Bush we do.
I suppose the frustration and anger that many Christians (myself included) feel at the percieved hijacking of “their” religious festival to commercial, materialistic and secular causes must mimic the frustrations of the pagan peoples as they saw their solstice being used by the early Church for their own purposes. The wheel turns I guess…
My own pet peeve is the consitant replacement of “Christ” by “X” in the awful “Xmas” - I long for the day when Christmas and Easter loose their status as public holidays and become religious holidays again. Then we will be able to re-instate Ascencion Day and Pentecost as “real” religious holidays. All of which leads me to another question…
Gp