I don’t know the validity of this, but that’s why I figured I’d ask you all here on the SDMB. Too mundane to fit into General Questions, and I don’t know how accurate it is so I cant put it in Great Debates (but if it turns out to be true, I’m assuming that it’ll be moved there). Moderators, feel free to move this if you think its in the wrong spot.
Last week I heard from a pretty good source that the U.S. Government declared the menorah of Judaism and the star of Islam to both be secular images, while the Christmas tree was said to be a religious image. I’ve seen all 3 around my school so I don’t know if the story is bogus or people just don’t know about it yet.
Is this true or is this just a load of crap. I’m hoping its crap, because all three of them are religious symbols. Seriously. If somebody shows you a picture of a menorah, do you honestly think they are not going to think of Chanukah? Ditto with the Star/Moon thing with Islam and the Tree with Christian denominations. I’m a Christian myself, and yes I do celebrate Christmas but only as a secular holiday. I wont get into the “why’s” but I can honestly see how all 3 symbols are religious. Just a thought for today…Please anyone who would know the validity of this, please comment. I wouldn’t want to tell people false things.
You said you got this concept from a “pretty good source.” Perhaps you can explain that a bit further. Do you mean the chap on the radio who said all that shocking stuff about the Clintons that seemed so plausible? Was it that exciting half-size paper at the checkout that told you the last eight times Dolly Parton was at death’s door?
No, not from the radio. Its a personal reliable source. A good friend who is a successful photographer. He always has a lot of random information like the menorah/star/tree thing, and he’s never been wrong before. Reliable enough that I wouldnt disregard it as soon as I heard it, but I’m smart enough to know when to chalange things, like this.
Ice Wolf’s post made it clear what’s likely going on. People who are rigidly interpreting separation of church and state have probably made it difficult for displays of things like menorahs and Christmas trees in public schools or on town greens. So you sidestep the whole issue by declaring certain symbols to be essentially secular. Which means that kindergarden teachers can once again put poster board cutouts of menorahs and Christmas trees on their bulletin boards without getting hassled by idiots.
Well, the menorah used in celebrating Hanukkah (or Chanukkah) is based on a piece of the Temple furnishings and is a commemoration of a supposed miraculous event. I’d say it’s more towards the “nativity scene” end of the religious-secular spectrum. A Christmas tree, on the other hand, has very little real Christian symbolism to it. I suppose it’s slightly more religious than Frosty the Snowman, since people traditionally top the tree with either an angel or a star (which clearly could be taken to symbolize the Star of Bethlehem, although stars can symbolize lots of things, including being pretty to look at). Actually, a decorated evergreen tree may have more deeply religious significance to assorted Neo-Pagans than it does to Christians. Of course Hanukkah is nowhere near as central to Judaism as Christmas is to many Christians; and for that matter, it seems to me that Easter is likely a more significant religious holiday to Christians than is Christmas.
A menorah, on state-owned property, isn’t up there with a big old cross, but I’m not too thrilled by it either. The thing is, by making Christmas a federal holiday which in some sense is forced on everyone, it seems to me we’ve essentially created two holidays or festivals which happen to share the same date: Christmas, the Christian celebration of the birth of their savior, celebrated–in Christian churches, homes, and on other Christian-owned property–with nativity scenes and readings from the books of Matthew and Luke; and “Christmas”, a secular winter festival observed by many Americans of various religious persuasions marked by the exchange of gifts, the decoration of evergreen trees (or reasonable facsimiles of such), the putting up of holly and pretty sparkly lights, and telling children about how Santa Claus brings gifts to good little boys and girls. Some of these things, like Santa Claus–“St. Nicholas”–used to be Christian but aren’t really any more. And of course many people who are both Christian and American celebrate both Christmas and “Christmas”, putting up a plastic Santa next to the nativity scene. Given the extent to which Christianity hijacked the whole “big feast day near the winter solstice” for its own purposes, the development of a secular “Christmas” alongside the religious Christmas strikes me as a fairly natural development.
So far Hanukkah hasn’t really made that transition to dual religious holiday/secular feast day, although well-meaning efforts at inclusiveness have greatly raised its profile. The thing is, people who aren’t Jewish in some sense or another don’t generally celebrate Hanukkah, whereas Americans who aren’t Christian at all will often celebrate “Christmas” the secular festival, especially if they have small children. So I would say the menorah is still religious, as is the nativity scene, but the Christmas tree isn’t. I’d also say there’s a big difference between what little Johnny or Sarah draw for their “winter holidays art project” at the public school–menorahs or Stars of Bethlehem or nativity scenes or whatever–and what ought to be put up as decorations on the publically-owned town square.
MEBuckner, I totally agree with what you have to say on that. it makes total sence. I’ve always viewed Christmas and “Christmas” to be totally different…much like how Halloween is celebrated. Yeah sure its got its roots in paganism, but I know many Christians who celebrate it just as a holiday and not as a death/wiccan/satanistic holiday.
I’m gonna hijack my own thread here and say that I really dont celebrate Chistmas as it is. Not to start a debate or anything, but I dont get the point in celebrating something thats never comanded in the bible. Thats why I dont have a problem putting up a tree and talking about Santa, but I wont put any nativity scenes up. If other people place nativity scenes/menorah’s up, thats none of my buisness, but I know I’m not going to.
Oh and thanks to you other guys for clairification.
Ugh, since I posted to the closed thread, here’s my old post:
I don’t see the difference. Just because the government declares something, doesn’t really mean a lot in the long run. They can’t tell you how to think- if you want to view a menorah as a sacred symbol- great, if you want to burn Christmas trees, okay, great. They don’t have thought police (yet).
Besides, what of separation of church and state? I think the government has much better things to do than go around deciding what is religious and what isn’t.
Even if all three of them are in your school…they are just decorations, not declarations of an official religion, right?
Well, if we’re going to have separation of church and state, the government sort of has to go around deciding what is religious and what isn’t. Thus, the Department of State is kosher (so to speak), but the Department of Witnessing to the Heathens is not, because the conduct of foreign relations is not religious, and carrying out the “Great Comission” is.