The Million Mom March-or is it Farce?

Let me start by saying that my utmost sympathy goes out to any and all people who have lost a friend/ relative/loved one due to gun violence, it is a terrible tragedy, and I do not diminish your loss by one iota. That, however is not the thrust of this post. I would also like to say that I am not a member of the NRA and I do not own a handgun or do any hunting or recreational shooting.

I have been reading about the organizers of this march, and while I applaud their intentions ( In the broad sense- to lessen violence and accidental gun deaths in the U.S.), I also wonder what they think they are going to acomplish. AFAIK, the things they are protesting most fall into two main catagories:

Number one, those innocent people, mostly children, who are the victems of accidental gun violence. You see the stories all the time in the paper and on the news, usually they start the same way: “XXX ws shot today when he/she and a group of his/her friends were playing/examining/fooling around with a gun that turned out to be loaded…”

Number two would encompass all those who have been shot by someone who was commiting a crime.

I’ll deal with these one at a time. First, catagory one. It is without a doubt one of the saddest things in modern American life to see the story of a young life ended in such a senseless way. Everyone I know of bleeds for the families in these situations. What is the solution? Well, I agree that throwing all the guns in America into the Atlantic Ocean would eliminate this, but that’s not going to happen. The 4th ammendment is pretty clear, in spite of what all the anti-gun folks think, and even if it weren’t, there is no way you could muster 2/3 of Congress to pass a counter ammendment. What’s left? Legislation jsut signed into law here in Maryland by Gov. Parris I-hate-Baltimore-in-spite-of-the-fact-that-it’s-the-economic-physical-and-cultural-heart-of-my-state Glendenning requires that gun locks be sold with every handgun purchased. Great idea, but who is gonna make sure they are USED? What I propose is gonna smack of the NRA, but to me it is about the only thing that makes sense. Education. That’s right, let’s teach kids how dangerous guns can be. I said I don’t own a handgun, but when my kids are 6-7 years old, I intend to buy one. I will then teach them what it is, what it does and how to handle it safely. How many of these deaths could be prevented if the victem left the room when he saw someone playing with a gun, or was smart enough and trained enough to pick up a gun and unload it if he came across it? How many children are going to find the lure of the forbidden in something that they are familiar with and have used themselves in controlled circumstances? Not many, I bet. I DO see the potential downside of this- that wackos like Harris and Kleibold may be more familiar with the weapons they intend to use( I put them more in group two, anyway. Someone who wants to kill can always find a way.). But think about last year. How many tragedies like Columbine were there? Balance this against how many kids were killed unintentionaly from fooling around with guns. I think the numbers speak for themselves. ANY GUN DEATH IS TOO MANY, but weight a handful against thousands. I would have to think long and hard about opposing firearms training as a part of a general education. I don’t know what I would decide.

Group two is easy. Passing laws to prevent CRIMINALS from breaking them is like legislating against tornados. Neither one is gonna give a rats ass for the law, they are already breaking it. In fact, takeing guns from law abiding citizens can leave them more vulernable to the crooks. Remember a few years ago when several tourists were killed by robbers in Florida? Several of the men caught for the crimes said they had targeted the tourists specifically because they knew that a tourist would not be armed, while the liberalized concealed carry laws just passed made this less of a certainty when acousting native Floridians. Here’s a partial solution. Anyone convicetd of firing a gun while commiting a crime against another person would get life without parole. Even strenuoualy enforcing the laws on the books would help. Instead, States and the Feds seem to be more determined to send the potheads up the river for long sentences. Does this make sense? How many of y’all know a pothead? How many of them are violent? I know several, and none of them is violent.

Again, let me reiterate: I understand why many of the people who will participate in the MMM tomorrow are going to do so. I deplore senseless violence and death. I just wonder if all this energy could be better spent persuing more realistic and maybe more effective goals. From an outsiders perspective, the two “sides” in this debate, except for extreme factions on each side, are in accord on what they want. I think the NRA AND most of the anti-gun lobby want to end useless violence, gun abuse and unnecessary death. If they could work together, with common sense and not knee jerk jingleism as their watchword, they might just acomplish it. Comments anyone?

I agree completely with you dave, I think you are essentially right about everything you said. =)

Incidentally, a story about the Million Mom March appears in this week’s issue of Time magazine. It’s mentioned on the the cover, as a matter of fact.

From what little I gleaned from skimming the article, it seems that the Million Mom March is towing the party line of Hangun Control, Inc..

Uh…you mean 2nd, right??
Anyway, for my real response…I totally agree, education is the way to go here, as in almost every other thing (I did a huge english project on this, that the goal of humaninty is to acuqire knowledge- it was a fantastic idea, well presented too, but I got a B because I didn’t follow the correct format…oh well.) I beleive Pepperlandgirl also mentioned that as her idea…you notice that those kinds of shootings don’t happen in states where most of the population shoots for sport of game- my friend’s girlfriend’s 13 year old sister knows how to shoot, and acts as if it is not at all unusual to be holding a POTENCIALLY lethal weapon (I should also point out, it’s damn hard to kill with a gun…one of those interesting things, how in war the wounded to killed ratio is often larger than 10:1, yet you never hear about a child being “minorly wounded” in a gun incident…sheesh, stupid press, we’d be better off without them (yes, that would reduce knowledge, which would contradict my original point, well you know what? I DON"T CARE! I like to say SCREW THE MEDIA!)
Thank you for reading through all that.

I KNEW! it was the 2nd. In fact, I typed it that way. then I misred a copy of the BOR that I have( It’s a copy of the original, so, I screwed up the cursive)and changed it to 4th. You are right, I am wrong, and an idiot besides. damn! It’s sad when you find yourself mistrusting yourself.

I remember when I first started to pay attention to the news at about age 15 or 16, and being shocked by all of the children who apparently died while playing with a gun. I could not comprehend how somebody would have a gun in their home and not educate their children, and how anybody no matter what the age, could play with a gun recklessly.
It’s a sad, tragic thing. I have always been comfortable holding/using guns, and like I’ve said before, so has all my friends.

They are invoking their first amendment rights to oppose thier second amendment rights.

anyone who uses a right to denounce a right is not only a hypocrite, but a fiend and guilty of treason.

SHould I be considered a saint for demanding the search and seizure of their homes?

I once knew a man killed because of an allergic reaction to shellfish. Should all men be barred from eating shellfish?

It is a farce.

I mostly agree with you, weirddave, but there’s a factor which I don’t think you’re aware of.

Some years ago NRA sponsored an education program for schools–I believe it was called the “Eddie the Eagle” program. (No relation to the nickname of the Dallas Stars goaltender that I’m aware of.) It featured stuff like comic books, and was meant to teach kids about firearms safety. Maybe it still exists–I’m not a member of NRA, so I’d have to ask my father.

([A slight hijack here.] My father is a life member of the National Rifle Association. He is 62 years old, a retired accountant on disability, and has never been connected to the firearms industry. Nor has he ever shot anyone. When you hear the anti-gun crowd bashing the Evil Extreme NRA, my father is who they’re talking about. Uh huh. [Hijack ends.])

Anyway, this whole concept drew howls of protest from the anti-gun types. Why? Well, near as I ever figured out, they were afraid it might encourage kids to think having a gun was ok–definitely not part of their agenda. (This is the same “logic” of those who think sex education causes promiscuity. Who says the Left and Right have nothing in common?) And…let’s face the unpleasant facts–there are those who are so enamored of their position that they would just as soon a few kids DID get killed, so they can use it to stampede people. Kids knowing firearm safety helps them not at all. (Those last two sentences are just my opinion–I have no quotes to back it up–but I’m convinced they are correct.) All of which is to say that I don’t for a moment think your suggestion of education, while being absolutely right, would be acceptable to the antis.

Incidentally, I was taught shooting and gun safety when I was five (yes, 5) years old–granted that this was over 30 years ago in a small rural area, so not everyone can have that opportunity. One of the things you notice if you’re in an area where a lot of people have guns is that violent crime rates are a lot lower than in areas where people don’t have them.

(The most notable child-murder around here recently involved a 15-year-old girl who was hanged with a clothes line and then finished off with a rock. It seems to me the implication of the Million Mom March is that the pain of this girl’s family is somehow less because she didn’t die in a politically useful way.)

I’m sure that most of the million moms–or however many there actually are–are sincere in thinking they are marching against violence (though I can’t help wondering why they aren’t marching against ALL violence, rather than just that committed with guns). As for the organizers…well, as tracer pointed out, they seem to be toeing the HCI line, to the point that I wonder whose bandwagon it actually is. Having a child killed is the most unbearable pain I can think of, but all this event accomplishes is publicity for the idea that guns = evil and therefore those who own guns = evil.

I went to school in a pretty rural area, with a lot of land around to hunt & fish & stuff. However, there were no firearm safety courses offered at school. We did have a boating safety course, and a snowmobile safety course. I took them both. I took them because my dad wouldn’t let me steer our sailboat or drive our snowmobile until I had a license.

If my dad had owned guns, and they had a free gun safety course at school, I’m sure I would have taken that, too. I see no problem with offering a gun safety course at school. It should be taught by the same types that took the courses I took–cops. Who better to hammer home good & bad stuff about guns than people who are around them practically 24-7, and aren’t going to gloss over anything? I think an EMT ought to come in & talk, too, to discuss just how ugly gunshot wounds are. Possibly someone on the order of Ted Nugent, too, to discuss how if you’re going to hunt, eat what you kill, don’t waste it (hey, I love venison).

Don’t misunderstand me–I really am in favor of gun safety courses at school, and I also think they should be free or low-cost. I just want to make sure the people teaching them are extremely clued in, not just any old NRA member off-the-street. Yeah, I’d probably let my kids take the course, too, if they wanted to. No, I don’t own guns, and I’m not going to, ever. I personally don’t like them. I don’t like onions, either, but I’m still going to teach my kids to cook with them, and let them decide later on whether or not they want to use them themselves.

MysterEcks wrote:

Darn it, I knew it was supposed to be spelled “toeing the line”, but I had a brain-fart and wrote “towing the line” in my post.

I feel so ashamed that I will now go hang myself from a clothes line and finish myself off with a rock (but I won’t shoot myself, because guns are “evil” :rolleyes: ).

pepperlandgirl wrote:

And I can’t comprehend why someone, with or without young children, would leave his guns lying around unlocked and loaded. That’s just plain irresponsible. If a thief breaks in and steals your gun, he could use it against someone else – or against you, if you come home while the thief is still in the house.

Even if you feel the need to keep a gun at the ready in case someone breaks in while you’re sleeping, you should lock it up whenever you’re not going to be in the same room with it.

**
And…let’s face the unpleasant facts–there are those who are so enamored of their position that they would just as soon a few kids DID get killed, so they can use it to stampede people.**

While I would think that the extreme elements would get all excited at each death, I don’t the majority would want that. There are enough gun deaths each year that it’s possibly that a majority of those million mom marchers are there because of personal loss. Personally, I know two families who lost children to accidental gunfire.

[clarification]
I’m neither anti-gun nor pro-gun, it’s just one of those issues that I can’t make mind up on.
[/clarification]

Weirddave wrote:
**requires that gun locks be sold with every handgun purchased. Great idea, but who is gonna make sure they are USED? What I propose is gonna smack of the NRA, but to me it is about the only thing that makes sense. Education. **

I have no problem with the idea of gun locks being sold with each gun. I just hope that there is no law that states once a family owns a gun that it is required to use the locks. You’re right, it’s uneforceable. However, there is nothing wrong with giving parents the option of using the locks. I know that my parents would have used gun locks on their guns, if they had the lock option. They kept talking about a gun safe, but couldn’t afford it and by the time they could my sister and I were old enough to know better not to point a gun at people.

Education, won’t work if it’s left up to the parents. As you said with gun locks, who would enforce it? It definitely needs to be in a school program (is Eddie the Eagle nationwide? Or just in certain regions?) The younger the kids are exposed to the program the better. One thing I have noticed about accidental child shooting deaths, the shooters tend to be at elementary school age.

I remember watching an Eddie the Eagle movie and thinking it was absurdly silly, but by then I was older, and I have a feeling it was geared towards younger audiences.
My parents have always had loaded guns in our house. And I can honestly tell you that none of us gave it a second thought. My grandparents always had unlocked, loaded guns. True, all of these guns were out of reach, but it was always a non-issue.
I think that when I am older, and on my way towards being an ‘adult’ I’m going to be a strong advocate of free gun education at schools. It never hurt to fight ignorance! =)

      • The Million Mom March is a farce; something for bored housewives to do to make themselves feel better. They could patrol the projects outside the beltway and look for illegal activities, but I don’t suppose we’ll be seeing that anytime soon. They want their opinions to be heard; no matter how uninformed. And they don’t want to actually, you know, be in any danger themselves, or risk anything, which isn’t surprising.
      • No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Being irrisponsible isn’t illegal, and shouldn’t be. In Britain (at one point) you were required to have a “secure storage area” for the storage of firearms, and later pellet guns. The storage area had to be a gun safe or a locking steel gun cabinet, securely fastened to the building so it couldn’t be easily removed. Police came and inspected it before granting your “permit”. It doesn’t sound unreasonable, except that some people who rented property weren’t allowed by their landlords to “securely fasten” anything, and couldn’t obtain permits as a result.
  • Now knowing this, if this law was copied in the US, what people would be affected first? That’s right, poor people. Disproportionately minorities. Like the ones in the DC slums the Moms won’t go near. Bedsheets, ladies? - MC

I merely said you should lock your guns up when not in use; I didn’t say you should be legally required to lock up your guns when not in use. I’m not asking for more legislation, just more common sense.

And you don’t need a full-blown gun safe to keep your firearms out of the hands of young children. A lockable filing cabinet or hope chest will do just as nicely. Of course, such a minor inconvenience won’t deter a burglar, but I’d guess most burglars will only waste time busting open locks to areas that look like they contain something valuable (like, say, a safe).

>>>tracer wrote: “Darn it, I knew it was supposed to be spelled “toeing the line”, but I had a brain-fart and wrote “towing the
line” in my post.”<<<

That’s ok, tracer–you got my name right. That’s the important part.

>>>beakerxf wrote: “While I would think that the extreme elements would get all excited at each death, I don’t the majority would want that.”<<<

No, no, don’t get me wrong–I’m not suggesting every person on the anti-gun side cavorts with glee every time a child gets shot. But there is that element, just as I’m sure there are those on the pro-gun side who would be happy as clams if there was a sudden outbreak of pencil-murders in the schools. Martyrs to the Cause, you know.

>>>“There are enough gun deaths each year that it’s possibly that a majority of those million mom marchers are there because of personal loss.”<<<

Ok, let’s get into some numbers. The last year I have data easily available for is 1995, which I get from National Safety Council statistics printed in the World Amanac. (As I understand it, the incidence for homicide and other violent crime is decreasing–so the Clinton Administration says–so these numbers should give us a reasonable model.)

The 1995 figures work out to this:

Total firearms deaths (not including legal intervention)–35,673

This is significantly lower than motor vehicle deaths for the same year (43,363, which I get from the same source), but it looks pretty high. The breakdown of this 35,673 shows a little bit different story.

Suicides–18,503

Homicides–15,551

Accidents–1,225

Undetermined (could be any of above)–394

In other words, the majority of gun deaths are actually suicides–as far as I’m concerned, that takes them off the table. That leaves us with the combined homicide/accident number, to which I will add the undetermineds–17,170. I’ll call that the number of Unwanted Firearms Deaths.

As for children who die of gunshot wounds, the combined numbers in here are these:

Under age 5–105 (82 homicides/20 accidents/3 undetermineds)

Age 5-14–562 (380 homicides/161 accidents/22 undetermineds.

The next catagory goes from age 15-24–too broad, I’d say, but they forgot to ask me. The number here is 6,631 (6,044 homicides/423 accidents/164 undetermined)

My point? Mainly that I think we should have some real numbers in front of us, rather than hype. TV often gives the impression that we’re all in imminent danger of being shot to death, but that’s just not so.

>>>“Personally, I know two families who lost children to accidental gunfire.”<<<

Bummer. I find that remarkable, in view of the numbers–604 accidental shooting deaths in 1995, and that includes everything up to age 24, so you have to extrapolate a lot of years to come up with a significant percentage of US families. I know a lot of people who have guns, and I don’t know any at all who’ve had a shooting of any sort.

A few comparisons for perspective–all from 1995, all from the same source:

Accidental firearms deaths–1,225

Accidental deaths from falls–13,600

Accidental drownings–4,300

Accidental death from ingestion of food or other object–2,900

(Note that numbers for the latter three are rounded to the nearest hundred.)

So at least in terms of accidents, the MMs would be better off marching for bans on ladders, swimming, and opening your mouth.

None of this is meant to in any way denigrate the pain of those who have lost loved ones–to gunshot, or to anything else. But there’s a lot of hysteria out there, and much of it is fostered for political purposes. That’s all the Million Mom March accomplishes–adding to it.

>>>“is Eddie the Eagle nationwide? Or just in certain regions?”<<<

I asked my father, and he told me Eddie the Eagle is still alive and well. It’s a nationwide program…but as I said before, there are people out there who do their best to keep it out of schools.

>>>pepperlandgirl wrote: “I think that when I am older, and on my way towards being an ‘adult’ I’m going to be a strong advocate of free gun education at schools.”<<<

Dunno how old you are, pepper, but you already sound like an adult to me. It’s a state of mind, not an age-number.

>>>“It never hurt to fight ignorance!”<<<

Just don’t make the mistake of thinking the ignoramuses will thank you for it.

>>>MC wrote: “Now knowing this, if this law was copied in the US, what people would be affected first? That’s right, poor people. Disproportionately minorities. Like the ones in the DC slums the Moms won’t go near. Bedsheets, ladies?”<<<

There has always been a certain element of this in calls for “gun control,” especially in the move to ban so-called “Saturday Night Specials” (ie. cheaper handguns). Perhaps this isn’t surprising, since the first “gun control” laws in this country banned cheaper weapons which could be afforded by poor freed slaves. That’s right, “gun control” started out as a “Jim Crow Law.” Considering the political allignment of the majority of today’s anti-gunners, I find this amusing as hell.

MysterEcks wrote:

… which I wouldn’t have without cut-and-paste.

One thing I’ve heard is that the NRA wants their Eddie the Eagle Program to be the only firearms education program in schools – i.e. they don’t want competition from, say, the local police department or other organizations.

Look at it this way, if you’re passionate about an issue there are only a few effective ways to spread the message:

  1. A peaceful assembly strictly for informing

  2. A large act of civil-disobedience, preferably non-violent

  3. A large boycott

Or a combination of the above. I don’t think its fair to call an assembly a farce. How often do you get out of your work-a-day rut and do something you think will help/change society? To your average gawker its stupid, but without assembly there probably would never be any social change.

No, but had he killed another man with a shellfish it should be considered :slight_smile:

Education would be nice, but if it turns out to be as useful as the D.A.R.E program has keeping kids off drugs then what’s the point?

Needs