We all understand there is zero possibility of actually kicking Trump out of office. The debate is whether we should proceed with impeachment inquiry and proceedings anyway, knowing it will fail. There are reasons for it: political advantage, more authority for investigation, “because it’s the right thing to do”, etc. There are reasons against it: political blowback, “because it will fail”, etc.
I don’t need to understand the ‘why’. What I understand is the fact that impeachment is a political process, not a legal one, which means an overwhelming majority of the country - probably better than 60% needs to be firmly in the ‘get his ass out of here yesterday’ camp.
That’s great, but most of the people on this board have despised president Trump from the moment he started running for office in 2015, which is out of step with much of the country. This board isn’t a good barometer for why we should or should not have impeachment. Take the pulse of the entire country.
No, and that is where I think both Trump supporters and detractors go wrong. What separates people like Trump and an authoritarian state ain’t a piece of paper and the law; it’s the country’s collective value system. Constitutions, laws, and obedience to the rule of law are reflections of our collective values, and unfortunately, right now, I think that’s a serious problem, and I don’t know of any other way to fix it except to let people feel the repercussions of their own behavior.
I am not at all confident that this is going to change - not at all. What I am confident of is that this change is possible, and what I’m even more confident of is that letting the people decide whether Trump stays or goes is ultimately the ideal way out of this. I want to be clear: this is a constitutional crisis, but it’s not one that House Democrats can solve. It’s one that the people in this country have to solve, and this can be done in only one of two ways. They either vote Trump and much of the sick, diseased Republican party out of office in 2020, or they galvanize into an ostensible massive protest movement that climaxes with more than 60% of the electorate demanding that he leave before then. And preferably even greater than that percentage.
If you don’t care if they show up and vote, if you don’t mind Trump having a second term, well, fuck you.
I will just note that Pence lacks Trump’s political instincts, and leave it at that.
Like forming a committee and having hearings would change anything. The polls fluctuate -that’s the nature of public opinion. Again, they could have held their hearings - they’ve already tried. They tried to get Barr to testify. They tried to get McGahn to testify. They ain’t testifyin’. Trump ain’t cooperatin’. That’s the deal. And it’s that way because, one way or the other, most of the country has made up its mind about the Mueller report.
What’s much less certain is how Americans feel about Trump overall and whether they are benefiting from his presidency. That’s a lot less certain, and that’s why Pelosi is focusing less on Trump-Russia and more on Trump’s presidency in a more global sense. It’s the smart move.
Not directed at you at all, but I don’t have time to worry about protest voters who are considering staying at home over one nagging little grievance they have with the Democratic party. Already dealt with that shit in 2016, and that kind of snotty sentiment is very much why we’re living with President Trump. Got no patience for it. Don’t even want to hear about it.
read the post just before this one (not directed at you)
Its a moot point, but one concern I had initially with a Trump impeachment and Pres Pence wasn’t Pence. I agree he’s not good head of the ticket material. Rather, my concern was that it would give Cocaine Mitch and company time to select a more viable candidate in 2020. But that’s moot now. It’s Caesar Trump vs the world now.
I agree with you on that point. But a couple posts ago, you were responding to my point about marginal voters, the kind who don’t live and breathe politics, don’t cast protest votes, and don’t reliably vote in the first place. Plenty of these voters are guaranteed Dem votes IF they get to the polls. And that’s the sort of voter that’s the difference between high Dem turnout and so-so Dem turnout.
Like it or not, that’s the sort of voter that 2020 may depend on. We can argue about what approach is most likely to get them to show up, but I don’t have the patience for anyone who doesn’t care if they show up or not.
Our shared ‘fuck you’ to people who vote Green or whatever because the Dems aren’t liberal enough for them is a totally different issue.
Mostly agree. I hope Pelosi is taking the approach of “Don’t shoot until you see the whites of their eyes”. And can take this administration down with an avalanche of the crimes they are and have committed. We are already there of course, but it has to be things that cannot be ignored by the Senate.
Meaning, he’ll finally have to make good on his threat to shoot someone on 5th Avenue in broad daylight.
Probably. Mitch McConnell’s capacity for ignoring matters that he doesn’t want the Senate to vote on is nearly infinite.
Senate Republicans won’t act unless they feel pressure from their constituents. Nancy Pelosi and other Democratic leaders must work to change public opinion. Without that, impeachment would be futile.
Unfortunately, Trump’s approval rating hovers around 41% regardless of what he does. The last time his approval took a dip was the government shutdown, and even then it didn’t fall very far. I think it will take a big event for Trump to become unpopular enough for impeachment to work. Something like an economic crisis could do it (although I don’t really want to root for that).
I think Pelosi is doing as much as she can with what she has, but I have real doubts that it will be enough.
Believe me when I say I want that lying self serving piece of shit and his entire admin out ASAP. I agree that the law, the constitution would impeach and jail that fuck yesterday.
I am coming down on just impeach the stupid asshole, let the Senate let him go free and see where the pieces fall. It is the correct thing to do, but unfortunately, a gamble. A big one.
Being Right. Being correct. Is fine until you step in front of a car in a crosswalk.
…smarter people than me think this is incorrect.
This simply isn’t true. This isn’t how any of this works.
I don’t support impeachment because I “despise” Trump. I support it because it is the appropriate remedy for the actions he has taken while in office. That’s the entire point of the process. “The pulse of the country” isn’t an objective metric.
Its hilarious you think that you imagine America has some sort of “collective value system.” Collective values are not a “check on the system.” Collective values aren’t some sort of a super power. Ben Shapiro does not collectively hold the same values as Imani Gandy. Collective value systems will not stop the rise of an authoritarian state.
Constitutions and laws are keeping America together. They’ve actually held up better than they thought they would. But they only hold together if you enforce them. Do you know how to make them feel the repercussions? Hold them accountable.
People were confident in 2016 that there was no way that Trump was going to defeat Clinton. Confidence is a bad metric. Its based on a feeling in your head. The feeling in my head does not share your confidence.
I don’t think anyone is expecting the House Democrats to “fix everything.” But people do expect them at the very least to do their jobs.
The “people” are just as likely to solve the problem by voting Trump back into office in 2020. The “people” will struggle to have their voice heard when they are fighting systematic voter suppression, gerrymandering, Cambridge Analytica version 2, a complicit and indifferent media, zero protections from Russian interference and a propaganda machine that rivals those of authoritarian states.
I’m sure that many people will want to do the right thing. But the “bad guys” have stacked the deck. It isn’t just a matter of getting people out to vote. You just can’t “hope” that everything is going to go your way at the next election.
This isn’t going to happen. Most American’s really don’t give that much of a fuck. Many got out and marched early into Trumps election. But they aren’t marching now. Trump has consistently garnered the support of millions of Americans. And millions more that don’t support Trump would not be in favour of a “popular uprising”.
…I have no idea what it is you are trying to say.
You have never heard that analogy?
Ok. You are a pedestrian that has the right of way in a crosswalk. You have the law on your side. You step in front of a car and get killed. Well, you can put that the law was on your side on your gravestone.
Must I elaborate about what may happen if Trump is impeached by the House but the Senate lets him off?
This. When the Republicans controlled both houses of Congress, we protested and called our congresspersons and showed up at town halls and got out the vote, and voted in a Congress that could do at least some of the fighting for us.
Now it’s their turn. It’s ridiculous for them to say, “there’s another election coming up,” because by that metric there’s always another election coming up. We just had an election, six and a half months ago. We voted you in so you could do shit for us. And we didn’t mean passing bills that would be nice if they were made law, but that Mitch won’t even let the Senate consider. I mean, yeah, nice to lay down some markers of what could become law in 2021, but it’s the sort of thing that has to take a back seat if bigger things are on the table.
Apparently one of the reasons for this is that all the people who were organizing the marches, got hired by various Presidential campaigns. Can’t remember where I read this, and my Google-fu isn’t working well tonight. But I swear this is something I read in a trustworthy source in the past few months.
I think he means that having the right of way won’t stop a drunk driver from running you down.
So, what is her choice?
The Dems cannot remove Trump from office, all they can do is a meaningless indictment in the House.
Under the bus? Cite?
She can’t. I mean the House can indict, if that is what you mean by “Impeach” but the Dems can NOT remove trump from office. Period.
Becuase Indictment in the House is a pointless political gesture that does nothing but help trump get elected.
It would be, if the Senate would follow thru and convict,* but they ain’t, *so it’s pointless, except to help Trump.
Pelosi cant stop trump, nor stop the damage.
Indictment in the House will not stop the damage.