Navigator asked, in the OP:
Nonexistent.
I keep thinking- knowing what I know, living what I’ve lived and still live, that some of this discussion is dilletante-ish-
like officers who’ve never been on a line idly speculating about the nature of combat.
I feel that if you’ve been mauled, you don’t continue treating a bear cavalierly, discussing bears so lightly. So my feelings are that the bulk of you don’t know shit about shit, except for some books, other peoples ideas.
i also feel that I am cranky and evidently sensitive about this thread.
apologies, carry on
Umm… Ior?
Do you know something that I don’t? Last I checked, nobody’s been to Hell and back (despite the popularity of the phrase), so… there’s nothing to do BUT speculate, and all the good sense and original thought in the world won’t change that.
As one of the unwashed heathens, I tend to share David B’s view, but I still find it interesting to look for biblical patterns/consistencies (much like we speculate what fictional places/characters in books must be like).
ummmmm…what???
You’ve really outdone yourself on this one Polycarp.
One time you told me that you and I weren’t allowed to have opinions on a certain subject (homosexuality).
Well, this reincarnation statement is not even a matter of interpretation of Scripture. This is total personal opinion with absolutely no scriptual backing, and we’re not allowed to have an opinion that is contrary to everything the Bible teaches.
God IS loving, no doubt, but He knows a mans destiny before that man is born.
"For then must He (Christ) often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now ONCE in the end of the world hath He appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
And as it is appointed unto men ONCE to die, but after this the judgement.
So Christ was ONCE offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Hebrews 9:25-27
We can’t make it up as we go along.
Yeah.
Just FTR, I never said you were not entitled to an opinion on homosexuality. What I did say was that you and I were not entitled to an opinion on whether being gay, the orientation as opposed to taking action on it, is a choice. Better phrased, that might be said as that any opinion we take should be based on the facts, which are, to the best of my knowledge, that the universal testimony of gay people was that they did not choose to be gay, that it was something they discovered about themselves at around puberty. You’re welcome to have all the opinions you wish, but if you prefer not to be flamed on them, they should be substantiated by objective data. Mine, in this case, is.
As for what I said, I specifically stated it as hypothetical, my opinion, and clarified that it was unorthodox. The reincarnation bit is, however, backed up by Jewish belief, IIRC; it’s something God occasionally does, by their take. (I try not to speak authoritatively on Jewish belief, because I’ve discovered half of what I think I know is not valid. So let Zev or Dex or CMK or Izzy show up and validate or refute my memory of what they think.)
And, sir, the Bible does not state authoritatively that reincarnation, salvation after death, etc. does not occur; it merely suggests strongly that the time for decision is now, during this life. And I think neither of us will fault that. My own church has for 400+ years used a “weasel” statement on the topic of predestination that admits it’s Scriptural but effectively says that thinking about it leads one into heresy with very little effort, so let’s not. I’d suggest that any authoritative statement about reincarnation would fall into precisely that category: a good rationalization for not turning to God just yet, on the one hand, and a limitation of when God may give his grace and forgiveness on the other. So let’s not.
If true, then one of the appeals of Christianity must be that it frees its believers from all that burden of thinking.
Ah, another believer who believes either he does not have free will or that he does have it, but he’s not allowed to use it, which makes the existence of free will moot.
Interesting…
Some apocryphal writings that I was required to read in an English class comment somewhat on hell. One of them (the Gospel of Nicodemus (sp?) I believe, but I could be mistaken) discribed Jesus’ ascent into hell and subsequent “harrowing of hell” as present in Catholic theology. This book was meant to be taken as written by Nicodemus, but most likely wasn’t (as is the case with many apocryphal books) as was written during the early church, perhaps 300 to 500 AD. (These are my own hazy recollections, and may be wrong. I’ve done no research, but a web search might help out–anyone in the know, please lend your weight!)
Okay, history lesson over–the “harrowing of hell” (me being raised in a fundy Protestant way had never heard of such a thing) described a hell that was in many ways similar to the Greek version of hell depicted in Greek writings (Iliad, Odyssey, etc). That is, a grey and depressing place where not much happened and people sat around talking about how much better it was to be alive. In the Nicodemus version, everyone born since the dawn of time save Enoch and Elijah was present in hell, because there was no salvation until after Jesus died. In this harrowing, Jesus goes to hell after his death, knocks on the door, gets in and takes all up to heaven, leaves Elijah as a guardian, and then leaves for His own resurrection. As I recall, hell was depicted as a grey murky place were all (Adam, especially) sat around talking about how great it was to be alive. It makes sense, in a way–the early church borrowed heavily from Greek thought and philosophy, so it isn’t surprising that the Greek hell found a place in some of the apocryphal writings.
A warning–some of the apocryphal writings get a little weird (there’s one that has Adam and Eve up to their necks in water trying to atone after being kicked out of Eden), but they’re interesting. And it’s interesting to speculate on these initial views of hell.
Me? I’m not a big believer in the devil (sorry, Satan!) or hell as a place with pitchforks. My personal thoughts are that these are inventions of people desperate for deterrents–they were created to keep people scared enough to be good and shouldn’t be needed for those with broader minds. All that said, hell as existence seperate from God appeals to my mind. Doesn’t some Christian theology teach this–that wherever “Satan” is is hell because it is entirely devoid of God’s influence?
Just my musings,
Snicks
:
Yes, there is a Jewish idea of reincarnation. It’s not very fundamental or anything (I never heard a word about it throughout all of my schooling), but it’s there. As I understand it, in rare special cases in which God deems it to be necessary, souls may be sent back in new bodies. In most of the places in which I have read about it, it seems that these souls remember their previous lives and are there to accomplish a specific mission. There are probably those Jewish thinkers who don’t think that this takes place at all (a WAG would be Maimonedes, but I really don’t know). At the other end of the spectrum, kabbalists are very comfortable with the idea.
Anyway, Polycarp, the idea isn’t that sinners are allowed to take another shot at things, it’s that somehow they didn’t accomplish their mission in life and have been sent back to finish the job. But it’s a fun idea to play with, no?