Little Plastic Ninja-the salvation experience is something that just happens. God opens ones eyes to the truth even though they may have heard it and rejected it before.
Its one of those “realization” moments.
Siege, God is Just.
What can I say? When people refuse him, they must e punished, God doesn’t want this, but it is Just.
What gets me is this thread I recall well on here, and how people were up in arms that God would dare forgive murderers such as Berkowitz.
How unfair, they said, that one could cause such horror and just simply get forgiven.
And yet some of them (I recall not the posters) think God SHOULD forgive everyone, no matter what.
Vanilla, last night, my church held a requiem mass in which we honor and remember those who’ve died. It’s tied in with All Saints Day, the day after Halloween, and the reason Halloween has it’s existence (folks around here do know “Halloween” is an abbreviated form of “All Hallows [Saints] Evening”, right?) Most of the service music was from Gabriel Faure’s Requiem Mass. I’m going to quote the English translation of some of what we sung last night (we sung the original Latin):
The reason I’m quoting this is to point out again the difference between our respective faiths. Mine asks Christ not to condemn others; yours explicitly does so and simply calls it God’s justice, turning your back on the suffering of others because, presumably, somehow, for some reason, they deserve it. As I’ve said, so do I.
In church last night, I was reminded of something key to my, personal service to God. I spent most of my youth as a perennial outsider. In fact, what Guinastasia said about rapture theology seeming rather cliqueish to her applies to me, too. I’ve never been one for belonging to the in crowd, and I’m rather suspicious when I feel pressured to do so. I am not called to the popular, the comfortable, and those assured of their lot in life or in heaven. Those people don’t need my help and I don’t know how to give it to them. No, having spent most of my youth standing on the outside looking in, my calling is to those also on the outside. I’ve a sneaking suspicion that in someways I’m just a doorman, and, as long as one person is standing outside those doors, if I’m the person who closed those doors against them, then I, too, may not be allowed in.
Yes, there are terrible, terrible people out there. Earlier this month, I had to go to court to serve as a witness against a kid who got high on alcohol, valium, and cocaine, and then drove his car across the center lane of a busy road and into a minivan containing a family of five. At the courthouse that day, I offered such support and comfort as I could manage to the mother of the family, whose pelvis was shattered, and who’s going to need hip replacement surgery. She wanted him to go to jail (he did), and I wanted him to see, comprehend, and pay for the consequences of his actions. I would have been furious if he got off scot-free. I also wanted him to get rehab so he would never do such a thing again. He got that, too, and with luck and God’s help, maybe he’ll learn from his mistakes. Maybe he’ll even get to a point where he can stop others from making the same mistakes he made. My point is, it’s not for me to tell God how to deal with him or anyone else for that matter. How God treats Scott Peterson, Jeffrey Baumhammer, Jeffrey Daumer, or even a kid whose next high meant more than the safety of others is God’s business, not mine, and it’s not up to me to concern myself with it.
“As you judge others, so you will be judged,” Christ said. I know what it’s like to be under harsh judgement. That’s why I was watching myself in the courtroom a few weeks ago. I also know what it’s like to be shown infinite, immeasurable mercy, and how wonderful it felt. I’ve had the privilege of feeling God’s peace come upon my struggling, sometimes shattered soul. I know the joy and relief which comes of believing my sins are forgiven, not to mention the wonder that God should show such mercy to me, a sinner. How can I deny that to others? God’s Grace has shaped and saved my life. How can I close the door that leads to it to others in this world or the next? How can I say “God has opened my eyes, but not yours, therefore, away with you to eternal suffering and torment?” Heaven, to me, can be no more diminished than God can, for it is being in the Presence of God, an experience far beyond what our mortal minds can begin to imagine. I cannot picture earthly cares and distractions being part of it, therefore, even if all four of the men I mentioned are in heaven, I cannot see it diminishing my experience of it any more than their existence on earth diminishes God’s existence. Frankly, I doubt I’d be aware of them. In the Presence of God, even awareness of the presence or absence of my closest friends might be drowned out and overwhelmed.
You, apparently, have needed judgement in your life. Having experienced judgement, I need mercy. Both are appropriate at the right time; I’m very glad that young man I mentioned received judgement. However, saying others are condemned to eternal suffering, and making it necessary for you to experience heaven, if only in your theology, is something which I will continue to object to. Four years ago, on a church retreat, outside in the crisp autumn air, I asked God what He wanted of me, what it was I should do to fufill His Will for me. It seemed to me I received an answer as clear as the light filtering through the trees. He said, “Turn around. Come into the circle, come into the light. There are people here who want you; people here who need you. Turn around. You are loved, wanted, and needed.” The love and acceptance I so desperately longed for and needed was shown to me. So I am obligated by Christ, Himself, to show it to others. Rapture theology is not and cannot be part of that.
This sounds very much like an abusive human relationship; love me and obey me, or I’ll reject and hurt you. Are you suggesting that God is abusive? Are you saying that God really doesn’t love us unconditionally, only if we accept God according to your beliefs? If so, I want no part of a divine sadistic/masochistic relationship. I would walk away from such a human relationship, and will walk away from God if it means participating in an abusive relationship.
Some people feel that adults need to exact corporal punishment to show that they love their children (i.e. “spare the rod, spoil the child”), and that God does the same to us. I don’t buy it. I have disciplined my children without physical punishment, having learned from Jesus’ use of rebukes and parables that reason works to change the spirit. Even so, corporal punishment from a human parent is different from Divine corporal punishment, and coming from a just and merciful God makes God look like a sadist to me.
What do abusive persons say? People who beat their loved ones-their children, their lovers? “If you wouldn’t do X, I wouldn’t have to hurt you. You made me give you a broken nose. It’s your fault I burned your arm with cigarettes. It’s your fault I knocked you down the stairs, landing you in the emergency room. If you would behave/love me/not do whatever I would not have to do this. I hurt you because I love you.”
No, that’s not love. I wouldn’t accept that behavior in a parent, or a lover. Why should I accept it from someone who is supposed to be the source of all that is good? Aren’t we supposed to aspire to be as God is-to be GOOD as God is good? If that kind of behavior is wrong in humans, then it would also follow that it is wrong for a deity.
I was reading the Pittsburgh Catholic weeks ago, and it mentioned Left Behind and the Rapture hooey and stated that it’s NOT Catholic doctrine, in fact, as far as Catholicism is concerned, the Rapture theory is heresy. And that Catholics should NOT believe in it. Now, I’m no longer Catholic, but my upbringing as such has shaped my faith and being to what it is today. And I say that no loving, JUST God would do such a thing.
Not only that, but where could you turn for strength if you were in an abusive relationship? God, who will do the same or worse if you don’t believe certain things, or in a certain way? Where is the hope that Jesus is supposed to have brought us if God is just going to punish us further? That sounds bleak, hopeless, and a lot like Hell.
I want to know - just which God are we supposed to believe in?
The god of Abraham (Jews)
The god of the Catholics
The Lutheran god
The Southern Baptist god
Allah
Cthulhu (couldn’t resist)
Every religion puts their own spin on God, so how do we know which is the right one? If we pick the wrong one, then what? I was raised Catholic, and “our” god was a whole lot different from the judgemental, vengeful supercop of some other (mainly Southern) religions. We didn’t worry about being tossed into fire for every stray thought. We didn’t worry about one single bad thing wiping out a life full of good things done. Sure, there was punishment for the truly vile, but there was also hope. Our version of Christ said even the evil had a spark of good in them and could be redeemed. We were taught not to judge others unless we wanted to be judged just as harshly. Our Bible didn’t begin and end with Revelations (which nobody REALLY understands anyway). We were never taught about any Rapture. We were taught that what mattered was how you lived and acted, not what preacher you blindly obeyed or what statue you paid lip service to. Just claiming to have faith didn’t cut the mustard. Just feeling righteous and superior was not gonna get it. Actions counted.
I knew I’d seen this before somewhere (paws through bookshelves)…yup, my copy of High Weirdness By Mail (1988) has panels 28-31. Same “art”, different text; no microchip reference, for example, and Bobby’s showdown with Grandpa was longer in the original.
“You’re sick, you old fool - you’re sick, sick, sick!I’m turning you in!”
“Bobby, Jesus loves you too!”
“SHUT UP, YOU @!!!# FASCIST!”
Two panels later, the old dialog was, “Who is Jesus?”
“He is Lord!”
“@!!## - - Take this thing away…”, etc. Ah, nostalgia. I must apologise for the pound signs, my keyboard doesn’t do stars.
I know exactly what you are describing. I had one of these the last time I took psychedelic mushrooms. They open my eyes to the world around me and let me accept truths I’ve been fighting subconsciously. Mushrooms have been positively therapeutic for me over the last ten years. I only take them about once a year and I always feel more complete and in touch with my true self afterwards.
So, how is my “realization” moment any different from yours? Well, for starters, it doesn’t leave me feeling that most of the world will be “rightfully” punished and destroyed. It doesn’t teach me hatred or vengeance for people who disagree with me. I’ll take my personal salvation experience over yours anytime.
