Your link didn’t work for me. I would imagine at 1:17 am my time the server isn’t all that busy.
Anyhow, I would be interested in finding out what percentage of all suicides include guns versus other means.
Also, when you say “accidents” what is the definition of accidents? My figures of over 41,000 car accidents in 1997 obviously aren’t a factor here. But to compare murders with suicides is comparing apples and oranges.
A murder is another human being inflicting death upon another, taking the right of another to live. As a former suicidal person, it doesn’t register as to why this could even be remotely similar.
As for my comparison of vehicle fatalities and alcohol related fatalities, this is very pertinent. Cars are legal, alcohol is legal, guns are legal. Suicide on the other hand is a moral issue, not particularly a matter of government affairs.
You might ask if I had a gun in the house would I have considered that an option. I say, yep. However, the place I was in my suicidal mode was not to the point I would have carried it out, although I did take many sleeping pills one night, but something in me knew it was not lethal. It was enough that I woke up the next morning feeling like the biggest piece of crap and to email my older brother into helping me. Suicidal feelings are not an end, it can be a beginning for many.
Anyhow, murder vs. suicide in my opinion are two different things.
I know we have strayed far off topic, but this is where there lawsuits on the tobacco companies are leading us:
For Immediate Release:
January 27, 2000
Contact:
Bruce Friedrich 757-622-7382
New Hampshire – “Petunia the Pig” may not vote, but as citizens in New Hampshire turn their attention to selecting candidates for the presidency, she will be proposing her own legislation on behalf of vegetarian voters. Waving signs reading, “Cut the Pork–Tax Meat,” Petunia will greet candidates and their audiences at various locations across the state to urge support for a meat tax.
**PETA is advocating an excise tax on each purchase of meat and poultry, in the same way cancer-awareness groups advocated taxing cigarettes. Reports estimate that Americans spend as much as 123 billion dollars a year to treat hypertension, heart disease, stroke, cancer, obesity, and other diseases directly related to meat consumption. Work loss due to these illnesses costs businesses millions more. PETA wants a meat tax to pay for dietary education programs that would help reduce health care costs and save consumers’ and animals’ lives. **
A tax on meat would also help pay to clean up after the meat industry’s huge detrimental effect on the environment. Groups like the National Audubon Society and the Union of Concerned Scientists recognize that meat-eating ranks in the top three worst things we do to the planet.
“Candidates who talk about fair taxation and fiscal responsibility,” says PETA’s Vegetarian Campaign coordinator, Bruce Friedrich, “must realize that meat consumption costs us billions of dollars and millions of lives each year. A meat tax could be used as health insurance for health problems that America’s meat-eaters will invariably face later in life.”
For an interview with Bruce Friedrich, please call 757-622-7382, ext. 608. For more information, please visit our Web site at www.TaxMeat.com, or call 1-888-VEG-FOOD.
And I’d like to say that the only reason I’m still here is because, when I wanted to kill myself, I could not get a handgun. I did not have the money to buy one and didn’t know anyone who owned one so I could beg, borrow or steal it.
“But I’m feeling MUCH better now.”-- John Astin, on an episode of Night Court.
The difference is that as soon as it is discovered that meat or lifesavers or standing on one foot causes cancer, etc., this is disclosed to the public. This was not the case with tobacco.
As far as suicide goes, I think Jesse Ventura, of all people, said it best: “If life is so bad that you want to kill yourself, it can only get better.” A lot, maybe most, people commiting suicide want to fail. The innate desire to stay alive is hard to overcome. Guns just make it a whole lot easier.
And cars: True, many people are killed in auto accidents. But cars have great utility, whereas guns (which may be fun to shoot, but that is not what they are designed for, ultimately) don’t. Again, if laws were fully enforced, car accidents and fatalities would go down. I think that a more rigorous process is needed before one is allowed to drive. There are too many idiots behind the wheel. That however is a different thread. Techchick, I don’t understand how you can say that suicide vs murder is apples and oranges, but continue to compare guns and cars. It doesn’t make sense. Guns and cars are apples and fax machines.
-Dave
It’s not how you pick your nose, it’s where you put the boogers
We’re getting off subject, here, but FWIW, yes, for quite a while cigs were thought to be harmless. One ad, admittedly from quite awhile ago, actually claimed that smoking was healthy. And those warnings didn’t have much teeth in them. “…may be dangerous to your health”? These people knew it caused lung cancer, emphasyma (sp?), et al., yet they repeatedly, and vehemently, denied this. I haven’t seen any ads for McD’s claiming that Big Macs are health food. I agree that people should be allowed to take risks regarding what they choose to injest, so long as we are educated as to what those risks are. If you’d like to go through life blind to the consequences of your actions, that’s your business. Personally I’d like to know what I’m eating, smoking, drinking, or painting my house with.
-Dave
It’s not how you pick your nose, it’s where you put the boogers
My earlier question as to where to draw the line on what arms are protected by the Second Amendment remains unanswered. So why should I not be allowed to have a thermonuclear device? (to go to the extreme)
-Dave
It’s not how you pick your nose, it’s where you put the boogers
I decided to hit you in your own “home” as it were was probably a better strategy. I sure hope you don’t keep an UZI by the bed.
Seriously though, good thread here.
With regards to cigarettes:
Of course no-one will contend cigarettes have a positive influence on biological life. If they do, I challenge them to become a smoker.
Besides, you need not be afraid of looters… just lobby groups.
To the BigDaddyD:
I’m on the anti-2nd side, for arguments sake… and I have to admit, nothing stops you from reading your right to a thermonuclear device. If its controlled by the tyrannical government, its within your right to hold in case of tyranny. Now I disagree with that reading… some cases, its more effective and lethal to be able to use nothing but your hands.
I’m beginning to wonder, Freedom, if an understanding of “total war” is missing from the 2nd, in any case. I’ll solidify that for future debate.
And whats this about a girlfriend WAAAAAY up? giggle Heck man, why are you spending time debating right to gun ownership and the 2nd amendment with losers like me??
(I’m trying to take away your will to post… MWAHAHAHAAH)
We both work and have “off” schedules, so I get to jump on here and there at random times.
Trust me, she bitches about it plenty…
I have enjoyed the debate and regret that it looks like it is coming to a close. I keep looking for something new to take up with you, but I think it has all been done.
This makes three exhaustive gun threads in the last two weeks for me. I think I will keep the links together and then in the future when another one is started I will just post the links to save everyone some time.
“I should have the right to walk around with a thermo-nuclear device.”
“I should have the right to walk around with a hand grenade.”
I know that people are saying such things for the sake of hyperbole (I hope).
There’s a difference between a grenade (or whatever) and a firearm: A firearm must be pointed at the target. An inch off, and you miss. Explosives are not so discriminating.
While I don’t believe that the right to have firearms should be infringed upon, I don’t believe that indiscriminate weapons such as explosives should be allowed.
Unfortunately, explosives are much easier to make than firearms.
quote from Freedom -
“Just look at Vermont, basically any law abiding citizen can carry a pistol around. They have one of the lowest crime rates in the WORLD. Now compare that to all our cities that
we have made “gun free” zones.”
i don’t have any facts to back this up, just personal experience. i’d estimate that greater than 50% of my neighbors own at least one firearm. yet, i am not aware of any violent crime having occurred within my town in my (admittedly not great; 19 yrs) lifetime. with guns or without. which seems to me to point towards there being some sort of mentality factor which should be considered in gun debates. some cultures can live peacefully with guns. some can’t. i don’t know why, but i thought i’d throw this out there for you to chew on.
on a related note, i had this article emailed to me by a friend from home. the basic gist is that a vermont state legislator wants to levy a $500 dollar fine against all military-age non-gun-owners, in an effort to increase the instance of gun ownership. this link should take you to the article, from the boston globe. [http://www.boston.com/dailynews/031/region/Rutland_County_legislator_says:.shtml](http://www.boston.com/dailynews/031/region/Rutland_County_legislator_says:.shtml)
I didn’t read the article, but I think that people have the right NOT to own a gun, so the $500 fine would be unconstitutional.
Although I am a staunch supporter of the right to own a gun, I think there are some law-abiding citizens who SHOULDN’T own one. But I feel that is a matter of personal responsibility (something sadly lacking in our society).
People tend to throw the word “Right” around this board alot.
People also tend to add, subtract or otherwise change words in the Constitution.
I am pretty sure that there is a county in America that requires every home to have a gun in it.
I do not neccesarily want to get into whether or not every home SHOULD have a gun.
Although this might have been good enough for it’s own thread a couple of weeks ago.
However, if someone is going to claim that it is Un-Constitutional, then I will have to disagree. Please quote me the part of the Constitution that secures a “Right” not to own a gun.
On demand. With every right is implicit the option of not exercising that right.
I have the right to vote. The Constitution says so (Amendment 19). I may forego that right and not vote.
I have the right to trial by a jury. The Constitution says so (Amendment 7). I may forego that right and not have a jury.
I have the right to own a handgun. For the sake of argument, the Constitution says so (Amendment 2, as if you didn’t know). I may forego that right and not own a handgun.
Check that definition up top. If you owe me five bucks, will you then tell me I don’t have a right to forgive that debt?
No problem:
“The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the
people.” Amendment IX
Just because it ain’t in the Constitution don’t necessarily mean it ain’t a right.
The following are some thoughts and sarcasims that came to mind while reading through this thread:
What is the legal definition of the right to bear arms? I mean, I don’t like guns, but I would love one of those nifty shoulder launch missle thingys. Also, having my own nuke for when I decide to end it all, I can leave my mark on the world. (it will also teach those fools not to preempt “POKEMON” ever again)
IIRC about 10 years ago, a man who kept a rifle by the bed for security shot himself in the leg when awakened by a noise in his home. There was no intruder, just a moderate earthquake that rattled the windows.
To be fair, about the same time (different earthquake) a college student startled by an earthquake in the middle of the night, jumped from his top bunk out an upper story window and fell to his death. You don’t need a gun to do something stupid.
This may be a UL but it was used as part of an ad campaign a few years ago. A hunter is shot with his own gun by the dead animal he has just killed. Which, as I don’t care for hunting, I think is poetic justice.
There are approximately 3500 astronomers in the U.S., but over 15000 astrologers.
What’s YOUR sign?
I am 38 years old and have never been a victim of a crime. The majority of family and friends have not been victims either. I have known personally only 3 people who owned guns. One was a responsible person, who kept his handgun locked in a case taking it out only at the gun range. The second person was my brother, who while playing with his guitar was almost shot by his best friend playing with his gun (ages both in their early 20’s at the time). The third person was my boyfriends father, who was involved with an ugly incident many years ago when he was drunk - the local police had to be called (no one was hurt). Interestingly, none of these people have guns today. My friend and brother both sold their guns, my boyfriends father had his gun confiscated.
I live in the Tenderloin district of San Francisco, in a residential hotel. This is a poor neighborhood, and a sleazy one. Within blocks of the hotel, depending upon which way you walk, you will see female or male prostitutes, transgender prostitutes, and almost certainly what appears to be drug deals going down. In addition to the usual bums, homeless, and the poor. I’ve lived here for 5 years and I don’t feel comfortable in this neighborhood. I am rarely bothered, probably due to my size (6’4" 300 + lbs). The particular building I live in is reasonably safe, certainly safer than others nearby. I don’t see how a gun would make me feel any safer. It seems from what I have read and seen elsewhere, that crime strikes unexpectedly, to make full use of the protection a gun would offer I should wear it in a hip holster and sometimes even walk around with the gun loaded and drawn like some TV cop. (of course, if I had to fire the gun, I would turn it sideways for that sexy Hollywood shooting stance).
The bottom line of course - a gun is a weapon, and crime is not as bad as it is made out to be.
I do not wish to own a gun. It may be my right to have one, but it is also my right to worship as I see fit (or in my case, not). I don’t have to go to church, I don’t have to have a gun, I don’t have to assemble anywhere, and I don’t have to read the free press.
I also feel there should be some form of gun control.
These are just my admitedly naive ramblings.
There are approximately 3500 astronomers in the U.S., but over 15000 astrologers.
What’s YOUR sign?
Heck man, why are you spending time debating right to gun ownership and the 2nd amendment with losers like me??
