The offical 2005 Le Tour de France thread

[Boo_Boo_Foo]

@Ogre

Then I’ll have to eat crow and apologize. Sorry about that. I just seem to recall some threads from last year where you were pretty strident in your contention that he was juiced.

I remember those threads and I was very careful not to cross that line. It’s common knowledge that a LOT of young neo pros sign contracts where they waive their rights to know what their team medicos are injecting them with. It’s for this reason that Rob McEwen told me his latest contract specifically has a “no needles” clause. It’s becoming more common I’m told.

@Ogre

I can see your larger point, though, but I appreciate Armstrong for several reasons (and I doubt I’ll ever forget him or his accomplishments, regardless how obscure he might eventually become) - he beat cancer, he came back and won. A lot. He has kept his composure in the face of threats and allegations like a true champ. He has made me acutely aware of a sport I didn’t even know I had an interest in. And not least of all, he has opened the door (or helped to widen the crack) to American professional cyclists who might not have been considered for sponsorship at all a few years ago.

Hmmm… you see, I don’t have the same emotional attachment however. The one time I met Lance Armstrong was as a spectator at the 1992 Barcelona Olympics and to be perfectly frank, he was a fucking asshole back then. But he’s mellowed obviously and become far more circumspect.

Still, when I talk about Armstrong, I talk with a fair degree of detachment because I don’t hold the American pride angle. Most people who wax lyrical about Lance Armstrong never even knew he disappeared from the scene at the end of 1996 after getting dropped by Team Cofidis. Certainly, infinitely less Americans knew than Europeans did. But all of us in the sport knew. We heard he had cancer and that he’d pulled through. Yay, we thought. But then the word started coming out… “Holy Fuck… you should see how much weight he’s lost… if he gets fit he’s gonna fly!”

As for the door being opened to American cyclists? Honestly, Greg Lemond and Andy Hampsten did that. Lance Armstrong went straight into an American team called Motorola in 1993 which had been winning European races since 1991. BY 1995 there were a lot of American pros in Europe.

For example, 1998? The year before Armstrong’s first Tour win? An American named Bobby Julich came 3rd in the Tour.

In closing, it’s a uniquely American cultural thing that sports media love to delve into the background “private agle” of sportspeople. Consider all the stupefying background shit that takes place on NBC every Olympics. The Lance Armstrong story could have been written by a scriptwriter in that context. But if you’re a non-American, the cultural relevance of “background” stuff is more a case of “Ehhh… so what? Just get back to the racing thanks…” and there’s simply less emotional attachment as a result.

[Oslo_Ostragoth]

I was in Austin, TX, where Lance is regarded as a GOD, during one of his recent assaults on the TdF. The KLBJ afternoon talk-show host had, as a guest, a French journalist who said that everyone knows that Lance uses performance-enhancing drugs, and why didn’t we just admit it.

For the next two hours the host put on callers who said, more or less, that they were surprised that the journalist’s voice was so clear, considering that his head was completely up his ass.

Good radio.

[LilyValy]

I am not anti Amrstrong. He’s redefined what it means to “peak in July”. But there’s no way you could say he’s given more to the sport than he’s taken from it.

Armstrong did bring more attention to the Tour and no one can deny that. I live in Texas, and knew about the Tour because I happened to take French class in high school. However, most of my friends never heard of it till Lance. Whether or not he is one of the top cyclists will always be debated, what you can’t debate is the amount of (American) attention he brought to the sport. This is my second year watching the TdF, but I will continue to watch next year and the year after regardless of the fact that he will not be racing. In other words, he made me (and a lot of other people) a fan of the sport of cycling and that IS one hell of a contribution.

[Boo_Boo_Foo]

Do you seriously believe, however, that because you, yourself, have become immersed in the Tour de France these past 2 years that your enjoyment of the sport is any more important than the millions of Americans who followed Greg Lemond in the late 1980’s?

Sorry, but I simply don’t accept that because a shitload of “recent converts” to the sport are converts due to Armstrong’s story that Armstrong’s contribution is more powerful than Greg Lemond’s efforts.

Literally millions of Americans followed Lemond’s first ever victory by an American in the 1986 race. It’s wierd how nobody comes to that guys defence at all. For crying out loud, he was left for dead in the wilderness after a near fatal shotgun accident while his brother in law went for help. The guy STILL has 47 shot gun pellets in his chest. He came back and won 2 more Tours for a total of 3.

Millions of Americans were introduced to the sport via that guy, but noooooo… you only know about Lance Armstrong so only YOU know who has contributed to the sport you supposedly love so much now.

Your assertion that Armstrong brought more attention to the Tour de France is a hollow assertion. It only holds true for you, and recent converts like you. Anyone over the age of 30 who has followed sport in any capacity followed Greg Lemond and his epic battles with Bernard Hinault and Laurent Fignon.

Most importantly, if you’re such a fan now, who won last years World Championship? Or this years Tour of Flanders, or the Milan San Remo, or the Giro d’Italia? Your answer is “Huh?”, isn’t it? And that’s my point… there’s more to tennis than the US Open, and there’s more to Pro Cycling than the Tour de France.

Lance Armstrong has exploited the sport by deliberately avoiding the other classics. In time, most people will see this. But for now, the media circus runs at full steam.

[Boo_Boo_Foo]

Actually, Lily, may I apologise there please. Upon re-reading I can see my tone was getting unnecessarily hostile and condescending and I’m sorry.

I have a problem with Armstrong in the context of how little racing he actually has done these past 5 years. I’m not alone with having that problem, but I accept that it’s an issue largely confined to cycling purists.

[LilyValy]

Thank you for the apology. However, you do have a point the only races I have seen are the Tour and the Giro. I was not trying to say that Lance was better than other cyclists (as my knowledge on that point is lacking); I was just trying to point out that he has brought attention to cycling, and that is an accomplishment in itself.

[Ogre]

Literally millions of Americans followed Lemond’s first ever victory by an American in the 1986 race.

I know who Greg LeMond is. I even watched him race…but Lance Armstrong has become far, far, far better known here in America. What was it I saw on OLN yesterday? 30 million LIVESTRONG bracelets and counting? A minor fashion trend (copycat rubber bracelets) was kicked off by it. Rubber bracelets of every description are EVERYWHERE now. My girlfriend ( a librarian) came home with one the other day that read “Libraries matter”. Sorry, but Armstrong has become, like it or not, a cultural phenomenon here.

I’ve seen him in movies, commercials, the front covers of every magazine from SI to GQ.

He may not be here to stay, but he’ll be remembered.

[Mycroft_Holmes]

@Boo Boo Foo

I’m not alone with having that problem, but I accept that it’s an issue largely confined to cycling purists.

You are definitely not alone. I agree with you completely. I remember writing in last year’s Tour de France thread that I would not consider Lance as great a cyclist as Hinault, Indurain, Anquetil, Merckx, heck even Polidour, unless he decides to start racing in and winning a Giro, a Vuelta, a Paris-Roubaix, or some of the other classics.

OK, Armstrong has been unbeatable in July for six years now, but where is he for the rest of the year? Compare for instance the Palmares of Armstrong to Ullrich.

Other than his six tour wins, Lance won the Flèche Wallone in 1996, the Dauphiné Liberé in 2002 and 2003, and the Tour of Georgia in 2004. Ullrich has won the World Championships in 1999 and 2001, the Olympic road race in 2000, the Tour de Suisse in 2004 and the Vuelta in 1999. So, Ullrich is clearly the better racer outside the month of July.

Now look at some of Eddy Merckx’s palmares:

1966: Milan-San Remo
1967: Milan-San Remo, Flèche Wallone
1968: Paris-Roubaix, Giro D’Italia
1969: Milan-San Remo, Liège-Bastogne-Liège, Tour de France, Paris-Nice
1970: Paris-Roubaix, Gand-Wevelgem, Flèche Wallonne, Giro D’Italia, Tour de France, Paris-Nice
1971: World Championship, Milan-San Remo, Liège-Bastogne-Liège, Tour de France, Paris-Nice, Dauphiné-Libéré
1972: Milan-San Remo, Liège-Bastogne-Liège, Flèche Wallonne, Giro d’Italia, Tour de France
1973: Paris-Roubaix, Liège-Bastogne-Liège, Gand-Wevelgem, Amstel Gold Race, Vuelta, Giro d’Italia
1974: World Championship, Giro d’Italia, Tour de France, Tour de Suisse
1975: Milan-San Remo, Liège-Bastogne-Liège, Amstel Gold Race

That is only a small selection, and proves beyond a doubt that Merckx is worlds beyond Armstrong when it comes to looking at a whole season of cycling and not just three weeks in July.

[Mycroft_Holmes]

To get this thread back on track now, and end the discussions about who is the best ever:

How about Tom Boonen, huh? Does everyone else agree with me that he will probably end up in the green jersey in Paris and not McEwen or Hushovd? He looks pretty unbeatable in the sprints right now. He’s been having a pretty good year already anyway, but this should really put him over the top as the next big sprinter.

Also, who do you think will win the team time-trial this year? Discovery Channel has a great team of course, but I don’t think anyone should discount T-Mobile or even CSC. I think CSC might even be the surprise winner today.

By the way, it will be a time-trial light just like last year, which means that a team can lose a maximum of 10 * it’s placing in seconds (as of fifteenth place, only 5 seconds will be added). In other words, if a team finishes fifth, 2’43" behind the winning team, they can only lose a maximum of 510 = 50 seconds, and if it finishes seventeenth it can lose a maximum of 1510 + 2*5 = 160" = 2’40".

[Boo_Boo_Foo]

@Mycroft Holmes

How about Tom Boonen, huh? Does everyone else agree with me that he will probably end up in the green jersey in Paris and not McEwen or Hushovd? He looks pretty unbeatable in the sprints right now. He’s been having a pretty good year already anyway, but this should really put him over the top as the next big sprinter.

Yep, no doubts. In the abscence of the invincible Petacchi (who’s saving himself for the Worlds this year) young Tom is THE MAN right now - no doubts. And his two Spring Classic wins make him red hot in my opinion. In that context, O’Grady is actually the better competitor than Rob McEwen (who openly admits he’s specifically paid to win stages in Grand Tours and little else). O’Grady is a true season long dude, and I suspect it’ll be a Boonen-O’Grady duel for green now. I’m not seeing enough speed by Hushovd for me to think otherwise. I still think McEwen will win two stages though. He’s ultra good at that, and he showed he’s in great form in both the Giro and the Tour de Suisse.

@Mycroft Holmes

Also, who do you think will win the team time-trial this year? Discovery Channel has a great team of course, but I don’t think anyone should discount T-Mobile or even CSC. I think CSC might even be the surprise winner today.

That’s a very, very close one. T-Mobile is ultra strong too with Kloden, Vinokourev, Ulrich etc. I’m tipping Team CSC however. With Voight, Dave Z, and young Luke Roberts they strike me as being more complete than Armstrong, Hincapie, and Popovych.

@Mycroft Holmes

By the way, it will be a time-trial light just like last year, which means that a team can lose a maximum of 10 * it’s placing in seconds (as of fifteenth place, only 5 seconds will be added). In other words, if a team finishes fifth, 2’43" behind the winning team, they can only lose a maximum of 510 = 50 seconds, and if it finishes seventeenth it can lose a maximum of 1510 + 2*5 = 160" = 2’40".

It’s an unbelievably shitty system, isn’t it?

[Mycroft_Holmes]

Well, the team time trial has officially started now. The weather report says it might start raining by the end, so this could be a slight advantage for T-Mobile, since they start 15 minutes before Discovery Channel and 20 minutes before CSC. I still think CSC will win, with Discovery Channel a close second followed by Phonak, Gerolsteiner and then T-Mobile (Fassa Bartolo might be able to sneak into the top three also). Anyone else willing to risk a prediction?

[QuickSilver]

I’ll concede that Lance seems to be a one trick pony when it comes to the TdF. Still, he’s brought the sport a lot of attention here in the US and I blame him specifically for the skyrocketing prices of bikes and cycling gear in general.

Back to the OP… I’m thinking Discovery to win, CSC to place and T-Mobile to show. But it’s going to be a very narrow victory for Discovery.

[Trunk]

CSC is through the first time check with the best time. They’re really be putting out the effort to keep Zabriskie in yellow until the mountains.

They could easily hold on. They didn’t work much yesterday as the sprinter’s teams chased down the break, not that Disco or T-Mob did much work either, but the concern was that CSC would have to bring in Dekker, but they didn’t really have to.

Still, I don’t think Disco cares too much about getting Lance in yellow right now. As long as they keep Lance in touch (which he is, and will remain), they’re probably happy with a top 5 TTT.

[QuickSilver]

In this article from online cycling news:

Watch out who you’re elbowing!
Gerolsteiner’s Robert Förster learned the hard way that you’d better watch closely before you throw an elbow into a Discovery rider. In his Tour diary on radsportnews.de, he wrote about yesterday’s stage to Tours, “There was a lot of shoving going on in the field. At one point, someone from Discovery (Beltran) cam from behind, cut me off and forced himself by me. Oh well, it happens. Five kilometres further, another one from Discovery who also kind of pushed me aside. When shortly afterwards another Discovery rider appeared from behind, I thought, okay buddy, that’s enough. I threw my elbow out to make space. Oops, of course it was Armstrong himself! He gave me a dirty look and went directly to Levi Leipheimer, to ask what his teammate’s problem was…”

Okay, bad sportsmanship is not cool but if you’re playing with the big dogs… nobody like a tattle tale.

[Rick]

Well today’s team time trial sure changed things a bit. Zabriskie fell and dropped to ninth. Armstrong and the Discovery train set a record. So Lance is in Yellow. Now a question is Lance going to try and defend the yellow, or will he give it up to conserve energy for the mountains?
[hijack]
Boo Boo Foo I do want to comment about what you said regarding the impact of Greg Lemond vs. Lance Armstrong on the awareness of cycling in America.
First off I think you are over-estimating Lemond’s fan base, and under estimating Lance’s fan base. Millions of American’s followed Lemond? I’m sorry but IMHO you are off by at least a factor of 10. I have lived in America all of my life, and I would like to think I am a fairly well informed guy. Was I aware of Greg Lemond winning the TDF? yes. Could I have told you how many times? Nope. Was I aware of 7/11 sponsoring a cycle team? Yes. Could I have told you who was on it? Nope.
Now picture if you went out and asked 100 random Americans (non-cyclists) who is Greg Lemond? You would probably get 95 responses of Greg who? And maybe 5 answering either TDF winner, or a guy who runs a bike company. If you repeated the question of people riding Lemond bikes I would bet money that you would still have a good sized percentage of Greg who? answers.
Ask the same 200 people who is Lance Armstrong? You would probably get at least 50% of the non riders getting it right, and probably 85% of the riders.
FTR take a look at OLN’s ratings

Thanks to Armstrong’s continued success, plus some change in strategy by OLN executives, the average rating of 1.92 last year (about 1.5 million viewers) was an increase of about 20 percent from in 2003.

This is huge. Not all of those 1.5 million viewers are the same every day. Also when you factor in the fact that OLN is only available in less than 1/2 of the American homes there are very big numbers.
Lance was named sportsman of the year in 2002 by Sports Illustrated. This brought him in front of million of sports fans who never knew about the TDF before. If a few of these non cycling sports fans now follow the cycling, or ride themselves it’s all good IMHO.
Lance Armstrong’s story of near death, and comeback to win the TDF is the kind of story that rings in the American psyche. A real life Horatio Alger story. Man succeeding over adversity. Admittedly so did Greg Lemond. Was Lance’s adversity more adverse than Greg’s? Who the fuck knows? I can tell you this, I am not going to volunteer to get cancer and take a shotgun blast to the chest so I can compare the two. For whatever reason Lance’s story caught the public imagination, and Greg’s did not.
One last thing before we get back to this years TDF. don’t dis the Johnny come lately fans too much. Everybody has to start their fandom somewhere. Fans do go from no knowledge of a sport to knowing everything about it overnight. It takes time to build that fan up from a newbie. Encourage these new fans; don’t slam them for not knowing who won the Giro. Help them learn.
[/hijack]
Here is the latest GC standing for the race.

1  	001  	ARMSTRONG Lance  	DSC  	USA  	
2 	004 	HINCAPIE George 	DSC 	USA 	00' 55"
3 	028 	VOIGT Jens 	        CSC 	GER 	01' 04"
4 	023 	JULICH Bobby 	        CSC 	USA 	01' 07"
5 	008 	RUBIERA José Luis 	DSC 	ESP 	01' 14"
6 	007 	POPOVYCH Yaroslav 	DSC 	UKR 	01' 16"
7 	019 	VINOKOUROV Alexandre 	TMO 	KAZ 	01' 21"
8 	005 	NOVAL GONZALEZ Benjamin DSC 	ESP 	01' 26"
9 	029 	ZABRISKIE David 	CSC 	USA 	01' 26"
10 	021 	BASSO Ivan 	        CSC 	ITA 	01' 26"
11 	022 	ARVESEN Kurt-Asle 	CSC 	NOR 	01' 32"
12 	006 	PADRNOS Pavel 	DSC 	CZE 	01' 32"
13 	009 	SAVOLDELLI Paolo 	DSC 	ITA 	01' 33"
14 	011 	ULLRICH Jan 	        TMO 	GER 	01' 36"

Why is it such a bitch to get the columns to line up?
So will Lance defend the yellow tomorrow?

[Rick]

Fans do go from no knowledge of a sport

fans DON’T go :smack:

[Yookeroo]

I have to echo what others are saying about Lemond & Lance. Lance has had a much greater impact on cycling’s popularity in the U.S. It’s not even close. When Lemond was winning, coverage of the race was minimal. Now we get it live and replayed several times a day. I love Lamond, but Lance blows him away when it comes to raising awareness of the sport in the U.S.

[Rick]

From the OLN web site

@Phil Liggett

As I write, Zabriskie’s team is saying he may be out of the Tour with broken ribs.

I hope he can come back and ride, but that was one tough fall.

[Mycroft_Holmes]

@QuickSilver

Back to the OP… I’m thinking Discovery to win, CSC to place and T-Mobile to show. But it’s going to be a very narrow victory for Discovery.

Hey, you wouldn’t happen to have an extra copy of your crystal ball lying around would you? You had it exactly right! Although I think CSC might have pulled out the win if there hadn’t been that nasty fall near the end.

[Knorf]

Lance does indeed focus on the Tour, but it is not true that he completely ignores every other major race. Granted most of the important wins were before that year’s Tour, and mainly used as preparation for it, but a quick overview shows his winning attitude over many races and one-week tours.

No, he did not accomplish as many diverse wins over as broad a portion of a given season as Merckx did, but the cycling world is a very different place now. Even Eddy says so. Who knows whether it is, or will ever be again, possible to do what Merckx did, and still be a contender in the Tour. You can focus on the Tour, or everything else; it is probably impossible anymore to do both.

Danilo di Luca, is he a tour contender? I thought not. How about the remaining top ten in the ProTour: Tom Boonen, Alessandro Petacchi, Oscar Freire, Santiago Botero, Paolo Savoldelli, Davide Rebellin, Michael Rogers, Michael Boogerd, George Hincapie. Any tour contenders in that bunch? Hmmm…nope.

Lance Armstrong’s palmares:

2004
1st Tour de France, six stage wins including the Team Time Trial
1st Tour of Alrgarve stage win, 5th overall
1st Tour de Georgia, two stage wins
1st Midi Libre stage win, 6th overall
3rd Criterium International
4th Dauphine Libere
23d Tour of Murcia

2003
1st Tour de France, two stage wins including the Team Time Trial
1st Dauphine Libre, one stage win
8th Amstel Gold
20th Liege-Bastogne-Liege
8th End of year world ranking

2002
1st Tour de France, four stage wins
1st Midi Libre
1st Dauphine Libre, one stage win
2nd Criterium Internantional
3rd Championship of Zurich
4th Amstel Gold
6th San Francisco Grand Prix
2nd End of year world ranking

2001
1st Tour de France, four stage wins
1st Tour of Switzerland, two stage wins
2nd Amstel Gold
2nd Classique des Alpes
8th Setmana Catalana
12th Tour of Aragon
4th End of year world ranking

2000
1st Tour de France, one stage win
1st GP Eddy Merckx 2-man TT with “Eki” Ekimov
1st GP des Nations
2nd Paris-Camembert
3rd Dauphine Libere, one stage win, King of the Mountains winner
3rd Olympic Time Trial
3rd Classique des Alpes
4th GP Gippingen
7th GP Miguel Indurain
13th Olympic Road Race
4th End of year world ranking

1999
1st Tour de France, four stage wins
1st Dauphine Libere stage win, 8th overall
1st Circuit de la Sarthe stage win
1st Route de Sud stage win
2nd Amstel Gold
2nd Ride for the Roses criterium
7th Tour of Aragon
7th End of year world ranking

1998
1st Tour of Luxembourg, one stage win
1st Rheinland Pfalz Tour
1st Ride for the Roses criterium
1st Cascade Classic
2nd First Union Invitational
4th USPro Championship
4th Tour of Holland
4th Vuelta Espana
4th World Time Trial Championship
4th World Road Race Championship
25th End of year world ranking

1997 Lance joins Team USPS

1996
1st Fleche Wallone
1st Tour DuPont, five stage wins
1st Fresca Classic stage win
2nd Paris-Nice
2nd Liege-Bastogne-Liege
2nd GP Eddy Merckx
2nd Tour of Holland
4th Leeds Classic
4th GP Suisse
6th Olympic Time Trial
8th GP Harelbeke
11th Milan - San Remo
12th Olympic Road Race
14th San Sebastian Classic
17th Amstel Gold
9th End of year world ranking

1995
1st stage win Tour de France, 36th overall
1st San Sebastian Classic
1st Tour DuPont, three stage wins
1st Paris-Nice stage win
1st West Virginia Mountain Classic, one stage win
1st Tour of America race series
2nd Thrift Drug Classic
5th CoreStates USPro Championship
6th Liege-Bastogne-Liege
15th End of year world ranking

1994
1st Thrift Drug Classic
2nd Tour DuPont, one stage win
2nd Liege-Bastogne-Liege
2nd San Sebastian Classic
7th Tour of Switzerland
7th World Road Race Championship
25th End of year world ranking

1993
1st World Road Race Championship
1st Tour de France stage win
1st CoreStates USPro Championship
1st Trofeo Laigueglia
1st Thrift Drug Classic
1st Tour of Galicia
1st West Virginia Mountain Classic, two stage wins
1st Tour of America series
* Winner of $1 million Thrift Drug Triple Crown
2nd Tour DuPont, one stage win
3rd Tour of Sweden, one stage win
5th Leeds Classic
9th Paris-Nice
14th Championship of Zurich
21st End of year world ranking

1992
1st First Union Grand Prix
1st Thrift Drug Classic
1st Trittico Premondiale second leg
1st La Primavera Tour, three stage wins
1st Settimana Bergamasca stage win
2nd Championship of Zurich
8th Coppa Bernocchi
12th Tour DuPont
14th Tour of Galicia, one stage win
14th Olympic Road Race
17th GP Teleglobe