The Pagan Pentagram

Great Debates
1

(note: I waited to make sure I wasn’t posting this twice, as my machine copped out on the first go around. I apologize to the Mods if this duplicates)

I was reading this thread here:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=64311

That, combined with a pit thread I read a few months ago represents my sum total knowledge of Paganism or Wicca (are they the same?)

So, I’m pretty ignorant on this subject.

From my reading, it’s my understanding that paganism is a pretty newly created religion that borrows aspects of various older religions. It’s attracted people who are unsatisfied with Judeo-Christian exclusionary ethics, and others who are just generally disaffected. Additionally, it enjoys popularity throughout the gay community, which has clearly been treated poorly by most traditional religions.

Please feel free to correct me if I’m in error about any of the above.

I got to thinking about the Pentagram though.

I own a large ornate and very beautiful Basque cross on a gold chain. My deceased grandfather got it in WWII. He gave it to my father and died shortly thereafter. My father gave it to me.

I treasure this cross as an heirloom of a good man that I shall never know, as he died when my father was 11. I never wear it, though I’d like to.

If you’ve ever seen a Basque Cross, you’ll notice that it bears an unfortunate resemblance to a Swastika. It’s just a little curvier. Now that I mention it, there’s nothing really wrong with the Swastika, either. It’s been an ancient and revered symbol for thousands of years, by multiple cultures.

Unfortunately, the Swastika bears some bad connotations.

I suppose I could get away with wearing my Basque Cross. When people got offended by it I could become indignant, and tell them that it is not a Swastika, but a legitimate cross, and that even if it was a Swastika, just because they want to read something into it about Nazis, doesn’t mean it’s inherent in the symbol.

I suppose I could do that. To be honest, if I did, I’d have to say that I’d be deliberately looking for trouble.
For good or ill, it’s not appropriate to wear something in today’s society that could be easily mistaken for a Swastika.

I don’t want to cause misunderstandings. I don’t want to hurt people needlessly, and I want to make a good impression. Generally, I just want to get along.

So, I don’t ever wear the Basque Cross.

It seems the proper thing to do.

And this is why I’m confused.

If paganism is a religion which borrows from previous religions and is realtively new, there can be no question that people are aware of the connotations associated with the pentagram, whether they are legitimate or not.

I would assume that paganism didn’t choose to utilize the Swastika as a symbol for the same reasons that I don’t wear my Basque cross.

What I’m wondering, is what meaning should be construed from the choice to utilize the pentagram as a public symbol of modern paganism?

Is it an unfortunate oversight that is to late to correct, or is it a deliberate slap in the face to Judeo-Christian beliefs by those who feel exluded? Perhaps it would be better to say it’s a protest symbol?

Is the choice of the pentagram looking for trouble?

I really don’t know, which is why I ask.

It seems clear that this will be pretty debatable, which is why I ask here.

Let me know what you think.

2

If you want to get technical, Wicca could be considered a sub-sect of neo-paganism. Neo-paganism is just that: a revival of some of the older idols and rites of pre-Christian pagan religions. Wicca is extremely diverse; individual sects have their own traditions and rules, but basically follow the same ethical standard, which is basically the golden rule.

As for the pentagram, like the swastika, this is a symbol that has been used in rituals for thousands of years. It pre-dates Christianity. During Christianity’s spread through Europe, symbols and idols of pagan sects were demonized. The pentagram was associated with Satan (and consequently, Satanic cults which evolved from Christianity - not paganism - use this symbol).

Another example is large pitchforks used by agricultural pagans during their rituals. The devil carries a pitch fork. The cliche depiction of the devil (horns, tale, etc) comes from a relatively common depiction of the male/hunting deity, which is seen in many ancient cultures. This deity is worshipped in some pagan/wiccan sects along with modern reincarnations of the fertility goddess.

3

Also: A pentagram with one point on top is generally associated with paganism and Wicca; an “upside-down” pentagram with two points on top is usually the one those sneaky Satanists use.

4

Additionally, we need to clarify our terminology. The pagan/wiccan symbol is a pentacle and is generally shown with its point upright. The “Satanic” symbol is a pentagram (or at least is commonly known as such). As far as I know, the pentacle has been around a long time as a symbol of the “earth” (nb: by a “long” time I mean at least since the Rider-Waite Tarot, whenever that was published ;)).

The inverted pentacle, much like the inverted cross, was “abducted” by the Satanists; partially this is because they would absolutely love to be considered a part of a legitimate sect like paganism rather than a weirdo cult whose only purpose in life is to make psychopaths feel better and Christians cringe.

5

I have to assume that wiccans utilize the pentagram for one of the dozens of uses other than making Slayer aulbum covers look cool. Here’s a history of the pentagram.

That source points out that the pentagram wasn’t really associated with evil stuff until the nineteenth century, so I suppose it is quite analogous to the swastika.

Does that let wiccans off the hook? Well, I’m not so sure. If I were piecing together a new-ish religion borrowing from Eastern religions, could I, in this day and age, afford to ignore the recent use of the swastika? I’m sure wiccans would argue that their religion and its symbols are not new at all. So I’ll only go so far as to say that I don’t think it’s a wise idea.

It’s a practical matter, really. You know it’s going to cause trouble.

I can give you an excellent, stupid example. I used to work at an Asian art gallery. For one exhibit, the museum went to great expense to erect an actual temple entranceway which viewers walked through to see the exhibit. It was ornately decorated with swastikas. Sure enough, within a couple of days, an extremely irate person came at my manager spitting blood, demanding that this insult be removed immediately. My manager countered this person roughly like this:

“You are stupid. First, the swastikas go in the wrong direction. Second, that doorway pre-dates the Nazis by two thousand years. Third, you are arguing about this with the gift shop manager. Fourth, it doesn’t bother me, and I’m Jewish, too.”

That “stupid” part very nearly bought my manager the axe. The museum seriously considered taking down the doorway, not because they felt it was offensive to normal, thinking people, but because it was offensive to chumps. Chumps who could cause a lot of problems.

The bottom line is that, as you said, Scylla, such things invite unwanted trouble. It’s not really fair, I don’t think, but I do think that’s the way it is.

6

On an only partially related note, I wear my both my pentacle and my wolf talisman on a regular basis to my college (which happens to be Lutheran) and have not yet had any problems. No one has yet accused me of being a Satanist.

7

Here is one link I found on pentagrams, and here is another.

I also did a search on Satanism at AltaVista, but in the links I clicked on from that search, I did not find any direct connection between the pentagram and Satanism. Not that I had time to check out the gazillion links provided.

8

Do you restrict your behavior in other areas because uninformed people might rush to incorrect judgments? Do you choke back your honest opinions because someone might misinterpret them and take offense? Obviously, there is a point at which we all must be aware that we don’t live in a vaccuum; we must realize that some expressions truly are worthy of scorn, some opinions actually are offensive. The line is not always clear, but I see a clear distinction between offense I give and offense someone else takes through their own error.

I say wear the basque cross if you choose and let the pagans dance with their pentacles.

9

Here is a link, I hope, to an image of the cover of The Satanic Bible, featuring an image of an inverted pentagram. It’s association with Satanism was pretty much cemented when this book, which, to my knowledge, has never had a different cover, was released.

10

Great links. Thanks.

It seems like there’s a third possibility to my OP. That the pentagram was chosen in spite of the negative connotations perceived by outsiders.
Spiritus:

I don’t think you understand. It really looks like a Swastika.

11

I respect the individual’s right to attempt to co-opt (or reclaim) symbols such as the pentagram/pentacle and, yes, even the Swastika, as well as terminology such as “witch” and “witchcraft” and to attempt to overcome the negative associations those items and words commonly have in our society (or at least, in large sections thereof). More power to you.

But I just can’t break a sweat when such people get all indignant to find that people DO consider those words/imagery to have negative connotations – as if because it means something positive to you it must mean something positive to me, or to everyone else. For some, the pentacle/pentagram is a Very Bad Symbol, associated with Satanism, and they want nothing to do with it, be it rightside up or inverted. They are not required to think it is anything else, even if you (generic you) do. Sure, you can fight ignorance by enlightening such people – and more power to you. Just don’t act surprised/outraged if their first, tenth, or 90th reaction is not one of unrestrained approval.

12

I hate to give conflicting reports (something bound to happen when discussing Paganism, I know… ;)), but I’ve always understood the terminology to be defined thus:

A pentagram is a five-pointed star drawn with a single line. It’s not an object (like a pendant or ring), but the symbol itself. See Merriam-Webster’s online dictionary, as well as Wiccan definitions.
A pentacle is a representation of the pentagram in a circle.

Neither words are considered “evil” or used predominantely by Satanists. I’ve never heard of the division suggested by dogsbody. Honestly, I don’t find that they’re used consistently within Pagan or Wiccan communities. In both cases, however, they refer to a five-pointed star with a single point at the top. What’s predominately associated with Satanists is an inverted pentagram, just like the inverted cross.

However, Satanists aren’t the only one who use the pentagram inverted…A Mason group for women called The Order of the Eastern Star uses the inverted star in a variety of shapes. Also, very traditional covens used to use an inverted pentagram to represent a status or degree; because of the association with Satanism, most have done away with this usage. However, I have heard of it being used in ritual (upright representing feminine and inverted representing masculine).

So, I say, Wiccans reclaimed a lot of things and, because of Satanism and misconceptions have let some things go. However, when it comes down to it, much of what we say, believe and put our faith in is going to be misconstrued by those who want to equate Wicca with anti-Christians. The Horned God is another example of this.

Finally, yeah, preview!, I want to second the ideas made by Spiritus Mundi.

13

I have no cite, moi, only hearsay, sorry. Should have put that in my post.

However, as the particular tradition I follow is extremely eclectic, we don’t generally have any given symbol. I personally have one pentacle that I wear to rituals and to school (and keep hidden under my shirt at work and with my parents because their reaction would be much like Jodi’s). I’m not a Wiccan, nor a “witch” in any of the traditional senses of the word (exchange a b for the w in that second word and you’re closer ;)).

I do, however, recall an incident (for which I do not have a quote) regarding a Buddhist temple that was installed right next to a Jewish Synagogue - and all over the front of the temple were Sun Symbols. These Sun Symbols looked like - you guessed it - Swastikas. (This happened in the LA basin somewhere, I believe.) Through communication between the two groups a balance and understanding was achieved, which just goes to show that some folk can learn tolerance for symbols.

After all, they’re just that. Symbols. As such, they have little significance except what we put on them. A cross, pentacle/pentagram, star of david, what have you are just symbols, and not really worth taking offense at unless they’re being used in a hateful way.

14

It’s not like Wiccans just sat around a campfire and said ‘hey, let’s pick the most offensive symbol we can and reclaim it! That’ll show those stuffy buggers!’ My guess is, Gerald Gardner (held by most to be the inventor of Wicca) was in many, many ‘secret orders’ (Masonic lodges, stuff like that) and several of them already used the pentacle/gram (FWIW, my trad teaches the 5 pointed star is a pentagram, the pentacle is a pentagram with a circle around it) as was pointed out earlier and it’s featured prominently in Tarot. So he grabbed that one, and for whatever reason it came to be associated as the ‘main’ symbol of Wicca. There are others, just as Christians use the fish , dove, etc, but the pentacle happens to be the most popular one.

When I was shopping around for a spiritual path, the last thing on my mind was ‘gee, I should pick one with a really snappy symbol.’ Pentacles are hard to draw properly, anyways. But the symbolism is very nice, and it does the trick. Unlike the Nazis, the hype surrounding the ‘bad’ use of the symbol is mostly that, hype- unless you believe the Jack Chick tracts and think the local cop, Catholic priest and school teacher are all closet Satanists who hold Black Mass in the auditorium. Nazis did some very nasty, evil, well-documented things. Satanists, as far as I know, wear a lot of black, upset their parents and sneer at us sheep a lot, and not much else, as far as sinister (read:harmful) activities go. I have known lots of people from lots of different walks of life, and have never met anyone who was harmed by Satanism. I am suspicious of melodrama on the part of some preachers looking for an enemy,and making a lot of noise.

I have to say that I have never met anyone who has serious problems with the pentacle or for that matter, with Wicca. Most people are mildly interested (‘a Witch huh? Can you help me win the Lottery?’) to completely apathetic (‘a Witch huh? Big deal’). Since I’ve been wearing a pentacle, it’s never caused me any trouble. Of course, if (as is often the case) the extreme ones are again the ones making a lot of noise, maybe there’s a perception that lots of people are completely outraged when seeing a pentacle when in reality most people just don’t give a darn. I suspect a lot of the alarmed ones are the same people who think Tinky Winky is gay and are outraged about that, but hey, who knows.

I suppose my point is that I don’t expect unrestrained approval from anyone over my particular flavor of spirituality, I just expect to be more or less left alone, unless there is a curiosity/genuine willingness to learn about it. That is what I get. I don’t get preached at or notice bales of straw around my feet when I stand still for too long, so I’m happy. :smiley:

15

For what it’s worth, my pentacle has gotten me more people asking me if I’m Jewish than if I’m a Satanist.

16

I’ll have to take your word for it. I’ve seen a couple of Basque crosses, but they didn’t look particularly like swastikas to me. A quick google search didn’t turn up anything reminiscent of Nazis in the first 10 links, either.

It’s always an individual call, of course, but as I said: as a rule, I stop self-censoring when they stop trying to understand.

17

Actually, I should clarify that.

The lauburu does look like a swastika, just not a Nazi swastika. I actually have liked the rather elegant curves of the design ever since I first saw one. It reminds me of pinwheels and teardrops, and I’ve always been a sucker for mixed emotions. :wink:

18

Scylla mentioned that ht pentagram is abhorent to the “Judeo-Christian” tradition. You really should strike the “Judeo-” part of it out. Judaism deals very little (if at all) with symbols, preferring to invest mystical and religious meaning in the letters of the Hebrew alphabet. Even the Star of David has no particular signifigance - it’s merely a popular symbol.

As for the swastika… erm. Would you call a black person a Negro?

19

Seeking out conflict for it’s own sake may not be the course of wisdom, but when the avoidance of conflict requires one to allow the stupid masses to govern what we wear, the price is too high.

If you like it, wear it. If anyone asks, decide is you feel like explaining it again. If they don’t ask, and instead choose to go off in a huff, they deserve to.

I designed a symbol for my spiritual view and had it constructed. I’ve had people ask me what it is, and sometimes I explain it. Remember: "Ennui soi qui mal y pense."

20

By the way, before everyone jumps on and tells me that I’ve misquoted the order of the garter, I know already.