I believe in God, the God of the Bible that is. But I confess ignorance on things.
The Bible says the penalty for sin is death, right? Then at the resurection, we should all be ok, right? Because we paid the price, we died. Right? Explain this to me.
The death as penalty for sin in the Bible refers to the death of your soul, not your body.
That’s as clear as I can get for you, as I can’t tell you what the death of your soul means, exactly.
That is what the bible says. The penalty was paid by Christ long ago, so that death as a permanent consequence has been overcome. So you will be all right at resurection.
My old English teacher always talked about syntax. Is that related?
I mean, taxes are generally a penalty…
If you believe in the God of the bible and don’t know an answer to this, it seems to me you have not read the bible enough or gone to church enough.
There are many variations in belief as to what happens, but basically before Jesus, the soul went to hell. The really bad guys went to the bad parts of hell. The not so bad people (like Moses) went to limbo, which wasn’t too bad but wasn’t great either. When Jesus came along and died for our sins it meant that if anyone believed that Jesus was their savior then they would go to heaven and everyone else would go to hell.
There will be a lot of disagreement on what I just said, but it will get the ball rolling.
First I haven’t gone to church/read the Bible enough, then there are many variations in belief, then there will be alot of disagreement on what you said. Thanks for the response, Kniz, but your kind of all over the map.
Do I ever have to go to church or even read the Bible to believe in the God of the Bible? No.
I had always heard it said that “the wages of sin is death”.(Romans 6:23). That’s not the same thing at all. Maybe there’s a scholar of ancient greek hanging about tonight ?
Squink, the Greek word in Rom 6:23 is the plural of opsonion, which my book translates as “pay, wages, compensation”. But I’m not a Greek scholar, so I can’t offer a very insightful reading.
The traditional Christian answer has been that the penalty for sin is eternal damnation to Hell.
I’ve never been sure about the ‘Jesus died for our sins’ stuff - I hope it means if you believe, you don’t go to hell, but I’m truly not sure.
Anyway, one thing I do know is that God/Jesus was quite insistant that if you repent your sins, they’ll be forgiven, and that he’s merciful.
Just thought I’d toss that in to complicate things. 
Basically, if you obey the Bible, you don’t go to hell. I think.
So, if the penalty for sin is the death of the soul, how can Jesus’ physical death be considered payment for anybody’s sins? He did not sacrifice his soul, just his body. For someone who is immortal, three days of death is hardly payment in full for the billions of sinful lives on earth. Now, if the Son of God sacrificed himself to an eternity in hell, that would be something. Even I might have to repent.
First, if you had read the bible and gone to church you would know that according to Christainity going to heaven is not because we paid the price and died. It is because Jesus died for our sins. I don’t mean you have to believe that but that you would already know this as the doctrine.
Second, there are many variations, almost as many as there are different denominations. It is one of the big differences between Catholics and Protestants. For one thing, I don’t know them all and for another it’d take too long to go there.
Last, I think you do have to read the bible or go to church (actually do both) to really know the God of the bible. Now if you want to believe in your own personal God that is great.
As to my being all over the map, that was intentional because this subject is not cut and dried. As a matter of fact, I don’t know why it doesn’t really belong in GD, because it isn’t a GQ.
I think we’re well into Great Debates territory now, so I’ll move this.
bibliophage
moderator GQ
The verse in the Bible that I believe you are alluding to has already been mentioned as being Romans 6:23.
The New American Standard Version (NAS) of Romans 6:23 states, For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Why don’t you take a look at the information that can be found by using the Bible Study Tool: The NAS Strong’s Version There you can reference the words of Paul, an original Straight Dope. Paul, was an amazing man, he wasn’t just your average Jew who went to the local community college, he studied under Gamaliel. So in the Biblical sense he went to Harvard or it’s equivilant (FU maybe?).
I would like to share my thoughts on your comment though, since you did ask for an explaination.
First, let me preface and say that I am more of a lurker here, due to my feelings of inadequacies as far as intellectually going up against one of you “real” dopes. I’m NOT a debator by nature…but, bibliophage moved this thread while I was drafting my reply, so therefore…I’m here in Great Debates. [sub]Do you hear my knees knocking?[/sub]
The rightful consequence of sinning against God is eternal separation from Him. That is just and fair. He created mankind to coexist with him with only one rule. Man…ok…ok…Woman went against this rule (but, if Adam had truly been the man he was meant to be…he would have not allowed her to eat from the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil…I mean…he was the one who received the instructions!!) But, men!!! UGH!! Anyway…
But, God’s mercifulness came into play and He decided to give us another chance…so in comes Jesus to Save the day and us!!
Through Jesus’ life, one of the things we see is the importance of reading the Bible, it was through the knowledge of the scriptures, that Jesus was able to “confront” Satan when he tried to tempt Jesus. Without the knowledge of the scripture it is much, much harder to withstand the temptation of doing things that goes against God’s plan for our lives.
Through Jesus’ death, we see a man [sub]not dismissing His diety w/ that comment [/sub] who took on himself the sins of mankind…He had done nothing wrong…EVER!!
Crunchy, I think I agree w/ you in a sense…but, am having trouble with your verbage. Would you also agree, that a spiritual death is eternal separation from God?
Fear Itself, prior to the physical death of Christ on the ultimate altar of sacrifice- the cross, the Jewish sacrificial system as outlined in Leviticus 4:1-35, dictated that a “sin offering” was to be made. This offering was designed to atone for sin that was committed unintentionally. The animal to be offered as a sacrifice varied depending on who it represented and their status. It could be made on an individual or a corporate basis.
Jesus, was the unblemished lamb of God, offered on the altar as a “sin offering” for the sins of mankind. The only “requirement” is that we receive that “free gift” and acknowledge His death for what it was. [sub] That’s a little simplistic, there is a little more to it that I would love to share w/ you if you ever wanted to know.[/sub]
It was through His resurrection though that we know He was who He said He was!! He overcame death…[sub] hey, that could be a whole 'nother debate re: Just what was he doing during those 3 days!![/sub]
Ok, I have made this post long enough…sorry!!
But, does it answer any of the questions offered in the OP?
Or rather does it explain anything??
Angel /:)\ (that’s my head covering if you couldn’t tell…LOL)
Angelinside,Aren’t you suggesting God’s love is conditional? You are suggesting that there are requirements on our part. Aren’t you saying that someone who’s been raised in an environment not conducive to accepting Jesus Christ as his personal saviour, say Amerindians prior to Columbus for an easy example, is out of luck?
Although your view is very mainstream, I liken the “free gift” in your context not free at all, but similar to all the “free gifts” and “you are a winner” claims on the net that are offered and only by pursuing them do we find the strings attached.
The bible says that Jesus is the saviour of {b]all men**, (mission completed) and that we should preach these things. Now that is the good news for everyone
I have found that going to church is the worst way to find out what the bible actually says. I mean the bible says not to pray in public for the purpose of having people see you praying. Matthew 6 seemed pretty clear to me that church as we know it is more or less pretty sinful.
Erek
So in otherwords it is not saying that you will be punished by death, just that if you don’t sin you are likely to live longer? Which is kind of how I saw “Don’t eat pork”, and “Don’t fornicate” all these years. I mean, if you can get botulism or syphilus from doing it, then I guess the wages are pretty clear on that one. Especially in a time before penicillin and latex condoms.
Erek
five yards.
Unless it’s a personal foul, in which case it’s fifteen yards.
Last one for the night. I never understood this whole obsession with hell. From what I could understand when I read the bible was that it was oblivion. Eternal torment does not jive very well with oblivion. Also, it seems to me that what it is saying is that your ultimate choice at the end is just that, a choice. You are shown ALL the evidence and given the choice to cease existing or to live eternally. Although Oblivion does not jive with the idea of you actually existing at all. If there really is no such thing as time except as a measuring stick, then you’d have to cease to exist period, meaning you never existed to truely be in oblivion right? Then again if you give a form to oblivion then it’s not really oblivion, just like it’s cousin nothing.
Now these are the questions you have to ask yourself. Or maybe you should just ask yourself if some political dissident gets nailed to a stick, does it really have anything to do with your eternal soul?
Now that leads us to the question of your eternal soul. How do you jive a soul with ashes to ashes dust to dust? I don’t think you really can, I don’t think there is such thing as an eternal soul past the sum of your actions and experiences and how it affects the cosmos, much like the butterfly that flapped it’s wings and wiped out southern florida.
In conclusion, religious zealots are full of shit. There really isn’t anything that another can teach you as your path is your own. You can learn from others, but they can’t really teach you. If I believe that then why am I writing this? Well according to the bible, as a sinner, I am headed for oblivion and as I don’t believe in time as other than a measuring stick, I don’t actually exist, so I’m not really trying to convince anyone of anything.
<god>
Is that your final answer?
</god>
Here is the meaning of oblivion: http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary
This is “oblivion” in the Thesaurus: http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/thesaurus
Isn’t it odd that oblivion comes out closer to heaven than it does to hell?
But they don’t say that you get the choice at the end. You must make the choice now. Since one of the words for oblivion was nirvana which is another word for heaven I believe you have gone down the wrong road.
Here are two sites that may help you understand what is meant by Hell: http://www.pantheon.org/mythica/articles/s/sheol.html
http://www.yeshuatyisrael.com/sheol.htm
Time is nothing more than a measuring stick? Boy, Einstein sure spent a lot of that measurement on the concept of time and Hawkins wrote a whole book on it.
Did you think that up all by yourself?
It was getting late wasn’t it?
You’re right, but it would help if you understood what they are saying. If you decide you already know what they are saying then you are in your own little world.
It is quite possible that you are in Oblivion right now.